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TIFF ’22: 1on1 with Odunlade Adekola, Omowunmi Dada and Deyemi Okanlawon (THE KING’S HORSEMAN)

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Seun Olowo-Ake had the privilege of talking to Odunlade Adekola, Omowunmi Dada and Deyemi
Okanlawon, fellow Nigerians, and stars of The King’s Horseman about their film. In this interview, they
discuss reclaiming culture in a Western world, the duty of actors, and celebrating diversity.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

Olowo-Ake: I’m so excited for everybody to see this film when it comes on Netflix, and I wanted to start by honouring Mr. Biyi Bandele who wrote and directed the film. What was it like working with him on set?

Adekola: Biyi was a wonderful person. Personally, to me, Odunlade Adekola, he’s a wonderful director.
Every good thing about a director was in Biyi Bandele. He allowed you to think, to experiment and to
bring your own ideas on set. Sometimes, he would come over and ask, “how far? How do you see that
particular scene? Is it okay?” If I said, “I think it’s better this way,” he would say, “okay. Let’s try it.” That
was Bandele, always giving room to be an actor on set. We miss him.

Okanlawon: He was such a beautiful man. He is a director who lets you do you and then comes and
whispers in your ear, and that little insightful guidance just colours the entire scene differently. The
premiere was heavy because, watching the movie, having had these series of conversations with him, I
could literally feel his presence right behind the screen, like a conductor. I miss him. He would have
been so happy and very proud. I’m proud of him.

Dada: I had been a huge fan of his work- first his literary work because he started out as a writer- and
then when I saw Half of A Yellow Sun, I knew I wanted to work with him as an actor. I had been looking
forward to that opportunity, and when The King’s Horseman came calling, I was so excited. I first met
him at the rehearsal, and he was just so sweet! I would say first that he’s a very humble man. He’s that
director that wants to make sure you’re very comfortable. As an actor, he allows you to be. He wants to
see how you’re going to interpret a character because at the end of the day, as much as it is his film,
you- the actor- are the vessel with which this story is going to be told. It was a breath of fresh air
working with him. He was peaceful, calm, creative, jovial and such a hard worker. We truly wish he was
around for the premiere, but one thing we know for sure is that he was smiling down at us, seeing us
celebrate him, and I can’t wait for the world to see the magic we’ve created.

Olowo-Ake: A big theme in the film is ‘duty’. One of the core conflicts is that Elesin Oba hasn’t done his
duty to his people and then his son, Olunde, takes on this duty, “I will do on my father hasn’t.” As an
actor, do you feel a sense of duty when you’re approaching a film? And if you do, what is that, and how
do you bring that to your work?

Okanlawon: That’s a pretty interesting question. Yes! I think acting is one of the most honourable
professions ever. As with every other art form, but I’m an actor, so I’ll put acting above everything else
in that it really brings art to life. My job, my purpose, my mission as an actor really is to paint this picture in the most realistic form. And so, I feel a heavy burden in that, it’s not just about me. I want to be the best version of myself in my craft, and I owe it to myself, but beyond that I owe it to the audience, the story itself, for this film- our history. There’s a sense of duty from that angle then there’s to the people who are watching, to the hundreds of thousands of young actors who need an example of professionalism and craftsmanship, to my family, because film easily lend itself to legacy. So, you want to leave a legacy that your family and your friends would remember you by for generations to come. So yes, I feel a huge sense of responsibility.

Dada: For me as an actor, when I get a script, the first thing that compels me is the story: the story that needs to be told. I know that as talented as I am, it’s not just for me, it’s for the consumption of the whole world. And when a story gives me that opportunity, I take it upon myself to deliver. To not just act as that character, but to be that character so that that audience can really suspend their disbelief and it will be very easy for them to learn the things they need to from the story. I also believe that art is not just for entertainment; it’s for education, enlightenment, social emancipation and to make the world a better place. I know that I have the talent and that the onus is on me to make the world a better place, and I do that script by script, character by character.
Adekola: She has said it all [laughs]. I think as an actor, you have to be disciplined. Discipline is the key. If you’re disciplined, you’ll be able to interpret anything you want to and have total concentration on what you want to do. As an actor, that’s the first thing, no matter how talented you are. If you’re not
disciplined, if you don’t try to caution yourself, mostly when you’re on set, you’ll miss the track. So, it is a great duty for any actor. Elesin Oba [the film] speaks a lot about morale and about culture. If you
watch the film, every part of it is a great lesson for everyone.

Olowo-Ake: The film is based on the play, Death and the King’s Horseman, written by Prof. Wole Soyinka and in the play, he critiques colonisation and westernisation. In the film, we even see there is a clash of two cultures, and we’re finding with the way the world is now, lots of countries are westernized. Is there an element of our culture that you see isn’t being practiced anymore but you wish was still being practiced today?

Adekola: We don’t need to shy away from the fact that we’re in a modern world. Everything has really
changed. But despite that fact, we’re still maintaining our culture. At the premiere, look at Wunmi
[Dada]; she came out in her beautiful cultural attire. Look at me with my agbada, look at Adeyemi
[Okanlawon]. We’re still maintaining that sense of belonging, that we came from somewhere and we
need to represent them positively.

Okanlawon: I think humanity was built to evolve. Like young kids, they will grow. You want to guide that
growth, not yank things out of their lives and imprison or destroy certain things. You want to nurture.
And Africa in general and Nigeria, specifically, I feel like our growth was truncated. When we say, “the
rest of the world is westernised,” that is a truncation of growth. We were forced, I mean literally forced-
at gunpoint- to accept a different culture. We were brainwashed to see our culture as being inferior.
That act of westernisation is a group of people being brainwashed for whatever agenda. And so, I don’t know that there are things that I would say that I miss, or I would like to bring back. We’ve evolved. Even the westernisation phase has sort of started to pass. We’ve come to a place where we’re beginning to rediscover ourselves, and you can see it in our art especially- it will always start with art. That’s our responsibility as artists, to observe society and to speak to that. We see that in Afrobeats now taking over the world. Now, we are the ones doing the colonisation [laughs], but it’s on fairgrounds, nobody’s putting a gun to your head to listen to music. And then with Elesin Oba [the film], we can see some elements of our traditions that we can do without. But of course, the essence of who we are and our beliefs- the belief that we are a worthy race, that we’re meant to be here and not meant to be slaves to anybody, that we’re not second-class or third-class Global citizens, depending on who’s trying to be the judge of that. We have a place; we have a voice and it’s just really important that the world – and us- starts to accept that.

Dada: Westernisation has come to stay, and while we’re happy and embracing it, let’s not lose
ourselves. And it starts from our mother tongue. The truth is an Englishman will speak English because
that is their mother tongue; a Chinese person will speak Mandarin first because that is their mother
tongue. I know that things are getting better, but there was a time that people lost touch of their culture and tradition, most especially with our languages. Growing up, in Primary Schools when you speak your mother tongue, they called it ‘vernacular’. I think that is very rude and degrading, because you’re first African before you can embrace something else. You can’t give what you don’t have. You have to be whole in yourself to be able to embrace something else and love it. So, I would love that Africans embrace African-ness more and that we appreciate our culture; Yoruba, Hausa, Igbo, Swahili, whatever it is that is your mother tongue. I would love that every child that is being born to any culture first embraces who they are before embracing other things. Just be proud, basically! I love that the world is now celebrating Nigerian music as we’re producing more Afrobeats, and it’s the same for the Nigerian film industry. We’re now embracing our stories more than we used to, and the world is coming to learn about us, so it makes sense that we tell our stories how we know them and how we want the world to see them rather than the world coming to tell them however they want.

Olowo-Ake: Yes. I actually saw the play [Death and the King’s Horseman] in December at Terra Kulture, Lagos, and I heard Bolanle Austen-Peters [director and producer of the play] talking about how it was quite challenging to move it from the page to the stage. Were there any parts of the script or even if the play that you found difficult and how did you navigate that?

Adekola: It was very challenging to bring this wonderful story to life. But, like I said earlier, as an actor,
you have to be disciplined. As a disciplined actor, you sit down and think. There are a lot of actors out
there, but if you watch this movie, you’ll see how challenging the movie is for every one of us. It is not
ordinary Yoruba [laughs], the one that we speak every day, but it is a true and fantastic storyline that
you need to take the time to study very well. When I was back in my hotel room when we were filming, I would go back to my script, read it, and try to get it right. Even parts that I didn’t really understand, I
would call people, “what does this mean? I have another interpretation for this word,” and figure out
what they meant. So, there were a lot of challenges, but at the end… we killed it [laughs].

Dada: [laughs] We killed it. The first time I came across this piece was in secondary school, and the truth is it’s not one of Wole Soyinka’s easy plays, because it’s very poetic and colourful. Then I went ahead to study theatre arts at the University of Lagos. There were many times when I worked on this play as a literary piece. I critiqued it using many different approaches; from a Marxist point of view, socialist point of view, feminist point of view etc, so I had critiqued it many times. I also had the opportunity to play Iyaloja on stage, but of course, stage allows you to play different kinds of characters as long as your act goes out to the audience. Now, this is the film adaptation of it, and I will tell you that the experience is very different. First, Wole Soyinka wrote this in English, but our script came two ways; with the English and the Yoruba translation, so you could choose to read it in either language, although we knew we were going to do the film in Yoruba. Interestingly, the translation of this piece into Yoruba helped me understand a lot of the proverbs that Wole Soyinka had written in English that I didn’t understand.

Olowo-Ake: Wow.

Dada: So many things like the conversation between Elesin Oba and Iyaloja. When I read this piece in
Yoruba, I now truly understood what Elesin Oba was saying. This is why I was saying you cannot run
away from your roots, because it is who you are and there is so much knowledge when we dig deep into our roots. So, the script was totally different and enlightening. It made me see this piece from a whole different perspective. Second, the bride, my character, says no words in this film. I now had to, as an actor, birth the pain of the bride: her joys, her fears and her struggles through my expression and body language. That was all I had. It’s harder, but it was a beautiful experience and I love challenges [laughs], so I’m really happy that I could do it and I was super proud of everybody when I watched it.

Adekola: It was also good to have great actors on set. It’s one thing to have a good story, it’s another
thing to have great actors to interpret it.

Okanlawon: It’s a difficult play. First of all, kudos to everyone in the world who has ever tried to put this
on stage. I read the stage play, and I was like, “how on earth am I going to do this?” and I have a stage
background so that’s saying something. Then the script came, and I was really impressed that the
essence of the play was kept. It’s a different medium, right? So, it has to be adapted, for the screen and I think it was beautifully done. For years, I’ve been questioning our film philosophy- in Nigeria and in Africa. You watch European films; you can tell there’s a voice. There’s American films, there’s their voice too. You watch Asian films? You can sense there’s a philosophy, an ideology behind what they’re doing, and I never really found that in African films, even though we do great films. When I watched this film, it felt distinct and weird, initially. I thought, “there’s something different. It’s not like any other film I’ve seen,” and then I realised, “oh my word! Finally, I’m hearing our voice.” I was comparing it with other movies, and I stopped myself, “no, no don’t do that. This is Africa. This is us telling our story our own way.” And it was beautiful to watch. I mean the music! Oh, my word, the music and how they infused drums, and even the language- although I think we borrowed a lot of that from Wole Soyinka. The language was so poetic and rhythmic. And, of course, every time they moved the story away from us-the Africans- to the British, how they blended into the European classical sound was just beautiful.

Olowo-Ake: Yeah. That was my next question, actually. The music. I noticed that it’s a constant
throughout the film and it carried the story. What was that like listening to people sing live and the
music on set?

Dada: Yay! I’m a theatre baby [laughs] I have a video where Odunlade and I just burst into dance while
they were singing. It’s so beautiful! Our music tells who we are. It shows our pain, joys and celebration.
You cannot take an African away from their music and you cannot take music out of the African. The
music in this film helps to buttress a lot of messages, so for almost every scene, there is music that is
buttressing the mood, the tone, the message- everything is so intertwined. It’s really beautiful and I’m
happy that with this piece, so many people out there will also get to learn some Yoruba songs [laughs].
Odunlade had this surreal moment when we were watching it and when I asked him, “are you okay?” he said, “Omowunmi, you know African music gives me life.” [laughs]

Adekola: [laughs] Like our Executive Producer said, you can’t take music away from our culture. It’s part of everything we do. In this movie, as an actor, producer, filmmaker, you will learn a lot. Apart from the story, it is well shot with great actors and great music. You can understand the story from the music and dancing alone. The non-Nigerians at the premiere enjoyed the film-

Dada: Yes, they were so engrossed.

Adekola: The music really kept them engaged.

Dada: Yes. That’s why I say film and art are not just for entertainment, but to educate. If a Western
person who has never had any experience of the Yoruba culture watches this film, they will be a quarter Yoruba. You experience the culture in this film, from our music, chants, instrumentation, food, lifestyle, communal living, marriage customs, burial customs- everything ‘Yoruba’ was represented in this film. It is an expose of the Yoruba culture and tradition.

Okanlawon: The music was so beautiful. It really immersed us in our culture and reminded us of who we are and why we’re here. At some point, I wasn’t acting. Those words [referring to his character, Olunde, confronting British ideology], I was just speaking the truth. It’s not my truth or our truth, it’s the truth and I felt it needed to be said. Then Biyi whispered in my ear. He said, “They’ve not won, so don’t be angry,” and it elevated all my work.

Olowo-Ake: I was thinking about the idea of the Oriki [a praise song or poem recited amongst Yoruba
speakers] and how people who aren’t Nigerian would imagine it would give you an ego, but they also
remind you of who you are. If you’re about to make a stupid decision, I think an Oriki can say,
“remember where you’re from, remember who you’re supposed to be,” and that can actually guide you.

Okanlawon: That’s why names are so important to us. Our names have meaning, they are constant
reminder of who we are. My name is Adeyemi Okanlawon. That’s a sentence. That means something.
And I wake up every morning knowing this is who I am. “I am worthy of the crown, because I am one in a million.” That’s kind of how that translates. As a kid you do need that confidence boost, you know, and I grew into that and here I am. And I’m worthy of where I am. Orikis take that a step higher, singing your praise, reminding you of your achievements, where you’re from, where you’re going, your purpose. That’s what an Oriki really is. I think every African should have one. As a matter of fact, now that you mentioned it, I’m going to go back home, I’m going to get somebody to write me an Oriki and sing it and I’ll listen to that every morning [laughs]. Whatever happens happens. If my head explodes from ego, that’s my head’s problem [laughs].

Olowo-Ake: I like history and I wish all of us knew more about our history, but I’m glad that art is helping us find out who we are again. What is one thing you hope audiences- especially Nigerian audiences- take away from this film when they see it?

Adekola: That we’ve retained our culture and are trying to speak about what we do. We’re trying to
project our culture to the world. All the non-Nigerians who saw this film now know more about us.
Someone said of all the Nollywood films they’ve seen; this one is exceptional. This movie is fully
packaged and everyone watching can learn something from it.

Dada: I would love for people to learn that we need to celebrate our uniqueness and diversity. I am an
African woman; I will never be an American woman. I have my culture, tradition and ways of life and I
respect myself with it. We need to respect each other’s culture and tradition. If someone else says this is how they do their thing, if it doesn’t hurt us, let’s respect it. I’ve learned that people belittle what they do not understand. Everyone is important and unique, celebrate people with their uniqueness. There’s no point trying to change them to being like you. I’m a black woman, I can never be white. A white person can never be black, but we’re all beautiful. God never makes mistakes. If He wanted everyone to be the same, He would create everyone to be the same, and God can never be mocked. So, I believe that this film will open people’s eyes to accept people more and to celebrate other people’s cultures.

Okanlawon: I know what it’s going to do. What it did to me and what it has done to a lot of people who
have seen it so far, and it’s in two parts. First of all, it’s a reminder to ourselves, who we are. And in
remembering, we start to question everything. I’ve been so fortunate to have grown up in an
environment that allowed me to question everything. I question everything, so, everything I believe in
now, I believe. It wasn’t stuff that was fed to me. I think it would help us ask these questions and regain
faith in who we are, in our tradition, in our culture, our religions and start to celebrate those things. The
second thing is it will be a signal to the world: that we’re here, and we’ve remembered. And they should be aware that we are now enlightened. There’s a warning in that too.

Olowo-Ake: Hm. Thank you so much.

TIFF ’22 1on1 with Amanda Forbis and Wendy Tilby (THE FLYING SAILOR)

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Recently, Seun Olowo-Ake (SO) got the chance to interview filmmakers of The Flying Sailor, Amanda Forbis (AF) and Wendy Tilby (WT) to talk about their film, the fragility of life and the role of art in making sense of it. Interview is edited for clarity.

SO: First of all, congratulations on your film. I saw it on the big screen and found it very immersive. There were times when I felt overwhelmed by what the sailor was going through, so it was a really nice watch.

AF & WT: Thank you! That’s really nice to hear.

SO: Yeah. And I found out that it’s based on a real story of an actual sailor who was involved in an explosion that sent him flying 2km, and that he landed unharmed, which is an insane story in itself.

AF: It is.

SO: When did you hear about this story and when was the moment you decided you wanted to make it into a film?

AF: We were visiting Halifax a long time ago- over 20 years ago as a matter of fact- and we went to the Maritime Museum, and they had a display about the Halifax explosion. There was maybe a paragraph on the wall about this one guy and his trip and I think Wendy said, “that would make a good film, just that trip.” So it was instantly an inspiring notion: ‘What would you do inside of that, being launched and landing?’

WT: We put it on the back burner for all these years because we did another film, but we never quite forgot it and we thought that would be a good thing to do. So we dusted it off, and we started to think about the ideas and near-death experiences- that was very inspiring; about how time slows down, what would that have been like visually and sound wise, and just this arc going from trauma into bliss and then the decision to go back into real life. Live or die, the sailor sort of hangs in the balance. So that was the structure, and then we like the fact that with animation we could make up stuff, we could just do what we wanted within that.

SO: A summary that was sent to us said that the film is an ‘exhilarating contemplation of wonder and the fragility of existence’. How do you incorporate those elements into the film as directors and animators?

AF: One of the things about it was that the actual sailor was probably about 22, but we very quickly decided that we wanted him to be middle aged because there’s just an inherent vulnerability in it. You know, he’s not a beautiful young guy flying through the air at all.

WT: We thought it would also be more fun.

AF: It’s funny. So, the entire film was a balance of beauty and horror, and funny and sad- you laugh, and you feel this poignancy at the same time. So, the vulnerability is kind of inherent in the idea in the sense that you think there’s a very good chance he’s going to die. As a matter of fact, if you don’t know anything about the film, you’d be sure he was going to die. I think some people are not even sure he lives at the end, when he wakes up on the ground. So, we had a pretty strong card there already.

WT: To the fragility question, in our minds we imagined the pinkness of his body in all of the smoke and debris, and there’s a frying pan and a chair and things going by- like a tsunami. People who are in tsunamis try to not get clobbered by junk, which is the biggest threat almost, even more so than drowning. So, there’s a fragility to this pink body and the nakedness. It’s almost like going back into the womb and being reborn. We loved that image, and that his movements when slowed down are balletic and kind of beautiful. And there’s that moment when he goes through the white light and he’s a little spec and it’s gone. Tere’s a beauty in that, it is like life is in the balance, but when he decides that he’s going to live, the plummet down then becomes very harsh again. We wanted that to be part of the trip because the decision to live is a much harder decision at that moment. To die in this beautiful moment is sort of the easier choice, but I think humans mostly have a will to live and that’s what he does. When he’s in this aftermath of an explosion it’s not going to be a very easy life after that.

SO: Out of curiosity, how long did it take you to make the film?

AF: Three years.

SO: Sometimes when people think of the fragility of life, they can get really inspired, ‘I need to do great things before my time is up,’ or they get overwhelmed and sad or they just resign themselves to it, ‘if it happens, it happens’. Where do you think you fall within those three categories?

AF: One thing that’s very interesting to us in this film is that most people who have met some kind of personal disaster have this moment of recognition of life before and after, and they meet right up in this intersection of where you find out that all your plans mean nothing, and life is this incredibly delicate thing. I’ve always felt that it makes me feel more alive. It’s not comfortable but you feel very very alive, and there’s something I treasure about that. I’m not anxious to go through horrible experiences but it’s very clarifying, and I think it can be all those things at once. You can be inspired by it and completely overwhelmed by it- I mean that’s sort of the hallmark of that kind of thing, is that it’s completely discombobulating. You are upended and you have to find a way to keep moving forward. So, I would say you feel all those things at once.

WT: Neither of us have ever been in a true near-death experience, but I think most people have little moments like that where suddenly, you’re reminded that life is precious and, for a short while anyway, you think, “I’ve got to make the most of it.” That often dissipates [laughs] and you forget and start to complain about things again, but I think it’s good to be reminded that it’s precious and to try to make the most of it, because we’re not here for very long.

AF: Apparently, people who go through those real near-death experiences afterwards mostly do not fear death at all. They think it’ll be a nice thing, which is interesting, and I think again, it’s very clarifying for them. It gives them an ease passing through life that they haven’t had before.

SO: Mm. On the sense of wonder, in my opinion, there seems to be a decrease of wonder in our society with all the access to information. Do you find that and how do you think we can preserve wonder?

WT: Talking about the digital world and information and amount of information that comes, sometimes you just want to unplug. I suppose one obvious thing is trying to get as much nature in your life as possible. That’s something that’s important to both of us, getting out into the woods or the mountains, definitely recharges our batteries. And then you appreciate the natural world. It’s funny and this isn’t quite what you’re asking, but we talked a lot about how to get a sense of wonder into the film and with the digital world in animation, where you can produce with computer graphics something that looks like a real human now, our instincts as filmmakers is to go back and do something really low tech because that takes us back to a sense of wonder. If you’re in a real theatre with live performers and somebody’s flying, you know that there are going to be ropes or something like that. In the world of CG animation, anything can happen, and it becomes less wonderous. It’s less exciting and interesting, so we’re always trying to go back to something old fashioned because I think that’s what captures that sense of amazement.

AF: I think your question taps into something that’s bothering me a lot lately in the sense that we seem to be getting more prosaic in our outlook. We’re a very concrete, money based, practical culture and there’s less and less room for humanities, for literature, for art, and that’s where the magic happens. Somebody makes something and it takes you someplace you didn’t expect, but you recognise it. There’s just this ineffable thing that we’re sharing and it’s hard to describe. That’s why you make art, because it’s hard to describe. We live in a culture that’s very impatient with things that it can’t describe, and I find it very disturbing because-

WT: Well, we’re uncomfortable with mystery.

AF: We’re very uncomfortable with mystery, and mystery’s fun, if you’re willing to give yourself over to it but if you’re not willing to give yourself over to it, where does it go? It just disappears. And I feel like we need to make a strong case for arts, for humanities, for just talking about what it is to be a human being, and that it’s a pretty mysterious business. We need to elevate these things as important in our culture.

SO: That’s my next question, actually. What do you think the place of art is in preserving wonder, but also in helping people make sense of the realities of life?

AF: I think it’s everything. It’s not the only way to make sense of the realities of life, but there’s a reason we’ve been doing it for as long as we’ve been homo sapiens. It helps us make meaning in life, which is an increasingly difficult challenge, I think.

WT: Yeah, I think a lot of people feel that art is a frill, or extraneous to our lives, that we should only put money into it if we’ve paid for everything else [laughs]

AF: [laughs] Yeah

WT: Because it’s just “entertainment”, whereas our view is it’s integral. The impulse to make art will always be there, but it’s hard for artists to make a living doing it because it’s not regarded as necessary in society so we’re always on the fringes. I mean, we’re lucky, we have the National Film Board, but I’m speaking much larger than that. It’s always quantified as numbers and audiences and ‘is it going to make its money back?’ and those are the wrong questions.

SO: Yeah, I can sense that too, because I’m a writer and I’m from Nigeria, and being in Nigeria saying, “I want to be a writer,” everyone was like, “what are you talking about? It’s not a real job, you can’t make money from that.” Now, being older, I can see that art helps our history and helps us learn where we come from so we can move forward and I’m glad to see it start to pick up where people are now supporting the arts more.

WT: I totally agree, and I think it comes down to what are considered priorities in education. I do feel sorry for the 18-year-olds who are trying to figure out what kind of post-secondary to do because I think they’re being encouraged to go into something that’s secure,

WT/AF: Go into business,

WT: Go into the trades, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but an education in the humanities and history and all those things will eventually enrich their lives and the world, but because it doesn’t have an immediate payoff, they’re not encouraged to do that and I find that worrisome

AF: I saw a quote from somebody famous, unfortunately I can’t remember who, but it was, “I feel sorry for people who don’t read because they’ve only lived one life, whereas a reader has lived thousands.” Ultimately the purpose of art is to connect us. We’re a culture that’s very fixated on our differences and they’re really not that great when you look at the big picture. Historically, art has helped us recognise commonalities and we really need that.

SO: What is one thing you hope audiences take away from the film when they see it?

WT: I think I want them to be moved. I would hope that there’s an emotion. Laughs are good, but we also want them to feel some poignancy for the sailor and to then take that outside of the film and relate to it in some way. But I hope that there’s emotion, that they’re not just dissecting it technically as the first response.

AF: Yeah. I agree with Wendy, that’s the main aim. But I would add too that I’ve been struck lately listening to interviews with artists, and the interviewer will cite some difficulty in their life and say, “how did you get through that?” And you think, “what are they supposed to do with that question?” I hope that by the end of the film, you think, “wow. What is that guy going to do now?” And that your first thought will be, “he’s got to find a pair of pants. That’s the first thing he’s going to do.” That’s the answer to that question, “how did you get through that?” You just got up the next morning. You just had some breakfast- or you didn’t- and you just trudged through the days until your life made sense again. I hope that somehow that is inferred and comes through the film.

WT: I hope ‘hope’ is in there. We know the film is benefitted by repeated viewings. One viewing is not enough because it’s fully packed, so we hope people will have an opportunity to see it again because I think it’s better that way.

SO: Thank you so much for talking to me today.

The Flying Sailor is currently playing at TIFF ’22 as part of their Short Cuts Programme.

Little Feet Forward: 1on1 with Dean Fleischer-Camp (MARCEL THE SHELL WITH SHOES ON)

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Sometimes, the smallest things have the biggest hearts.

Directed by Dean Fleischer-Camp, Marcel the Shell with Shoes On tells the story of an adorable knick-knack and his search for family. Marcel (voiced by Jenny Slate), a one-inch-tall shell with a single googly-eye, lives with his Grandmother as the sole survivors of a tragedy that saw his family disappear into the night. When a documentary director rents their home as an AirBnB, he cannot help but make Marcel his next subject. But, when the video goes viral online, Marcel begins to hope that these simple videos might lead to him finding the family that he lost and loves so dearly.

While Marcel may seem like a strange project, there’s something adorable and relatable about him that is deeply connecting with audiences. As the film continues to expand in North American theatres, Fleischer-Camp admits that the accolades and response have been overwhelming.

“It’s been amazing. It’s been so fun to talk with people and it’s been sort of surreal to me,” he beams. “We worked on this film for seven years. I remember when we premiered it at Telluride and I started hearing laughter and crying. It was just so moving and surprising. I was just like, “Oh yeah, that joke I forgot was funny three and a half years ago is really funny and gets a big laugh.” It’s thrilling. The memes that people have been making are incredible. I’m just grateful for the entire experience.”

One of the most unique aspects of Marcel is Fleischer-Camp’s decision to shoot the film using documentary techniques. In doing so, he brings a sense of reality to the project that other animated fare are unable to do. In fact, for him, the documentary style was always part of the concept.

“I’ve always been [interested in] documentaries and have worked on documentaries,” Fleischer-Camp explains. “I’ve also worked on things that blur the line between documentary and scripted narratives. So, it’s always been something I’m exploring. To me, it provides a way for an audience to have an intimate interaction with a character that does away with sort of the artifice of what you might get from a Pixar movie or a Disney movie that doesn’t have that approach. I think that, for whatever reason, stripping that away allows people allows people to respond to Marcel. He’s a real person. So, that inspired it.” 

“The original shorts, although they were so short,… were [also] a documentary format,” he continues. “I had intentionally edited it to feel sort of like a rough cut of a documentary. It cuts them off mid-sentence and things like that. It always felt like part of the magic that those shorts bottled. [There is] this great tension that happens when you combine stop motion, which is like the most labor intensive pre-visualized art form on earth with this aesthetic or film grammar that feels like its unquestionably spontaneous and authentically documentary. When you combine those two things, I think it’s just total magic. So, I was really focused on preserving that for the feature.”

Originally conceived as a series of YouTube shorts by Fleischer-Camp and his writing partner, Jenny Slate (who also voices Marcel), they did not know that people would respond to their beloved character. But, when they became an internet sensation, they knew that they had more story to tell. In fact, Fleischer-Camp contends that he always wanted to bring him to the big screen.

“It was always kind of the plan to turn this character into a feature,” he points out. “At the time that I made the shorts, I was an editor for a living, doing the worst editing gigs and was interested segueing into directing. So that was kind of always the plan. But after the first one took off, when something goes viral or is popular on the internet, you can get meetings with all the major studios and do this sort of water bottle tour of Los Angeles, but they’re not going to trust you to make your weird feature. They just want you to license your beloved character to them to make something that is a more familiar kind of tentpole franchise.” 

“Going through that process, it was recognizable right away [that] I’m really young. They’re not going to trust me to do this. We’re going to have to make this film independently and it might take a long time. But, ultimately, I’m so glad that we had this more patient process and that we found the right supporters creatively, financially, that we could expand Marcel’s world in a good way that felt holistic to the character we made.” 

Although Marcel may be small, his emotional arc is massive in his first film. Even though they created the initial shorts quickly, Fleischer-Camp and Slate found that there was a beauty about the young trinket’s soul. With that realization, they knew that had created something special.

“There wasn’t too much thought put into [the original short],” Fleischer-Camp recalls. “We made it in [about] 48 hours. Jenny and I wrote it very quickly. She improvised and I crafted the character very quickly. It was all kind of a rush and just done on a whim because it made us laugh. But I think what we realized once we saw the response… was that this character is so much richer and deeper than he appears and that there was so much more to explore about him. There was such a rich, inner life. It always feels like a total pleasure to write for this character and create stories for him. I often feel like I’m like just as moved by and inspired by him and by his circumstances in life and his approach to life as anyone.“

Dealing with themes of grief and loss, there’s a seriousness to the film that is entirely unexpected. However, Fleischer-Camp believes that it’s the film’s willingness to lean into the shadows of life that makes Marcel’s journey so unique.

“I think that he’s inspiring for that reason,” he argues. “I think it’s part of the reason he resonates with so many people. But you can’t really have the happiness and the real nectar of life, if you haven’t also been through and process the grief of it. Part of what I was interested in portraying in this movie is that pain, grief and loss are an inherent part of the cycle of life. You cannot literally—in nature but also, at least I’ve found in my own life—you can’t create new growth without death and decay. Those things enrich the soil, that growth sprouts from.”

With the success of Marcel’s big screen debut, it begs the question of whether or not we’ll see more of the young tchotchke. Although Fleischer-Camp can’t predict the future, there’s little doubt that he’d like to see him have future adventures.

“I don’t know what the future holds for Marcel, but I hope it’s a lot,” says Fleischer-Camp. “I hope that after the film comes out, there’s audiences that will want to see [more]. I don’t know if it’s a sequel or a TV series or more shorts or what but I would love to continue to explore the character in whatever way is fun and cool and chill for me and Jenny. We created this whole community of characters that are only in the last three minutes in the movie. Spoiler alert. (laughs) I was so sad watching it [when I realized that] we’ve fleshed out all these great characters. Some of them have some of my favorite comedians, Nathan fielder, a fellow Canuck, as the voice talent. They’re so funny and so great and I hope we get a chance to explore those characters as well.”

To hear our interview with Dean Fleischer-Camp, click here.

Marcel the Shell with Shoes On is in theatres now.

A Day to Die Director Wes Miller Tells It Like It Is

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When I first met Wes Miller, it was 2016 and he was the writer/director of Prayer Never Fails, a little film about a basketball coach who gets in hot water for praying with one of his players. The film didn’t blow critics away, but I noticed that Miller moved known entities like Corbin Bernsen, Eric Roberts, and Lorenzo Lamas through a story that didn’t beat folks over the head with its faith (even if the title seems direct). We chatted about life, faith, and movies, and Miller’s transition from lawyer-to-director intrigued me. 

Over the next several years, Miller would send me his projects and ask for an honest evaluation of what I was seeing on screen. In River Runs Red, a story Miller wrote about an African American judge whose son is killed in a routine traffic stop and then pursues justice, he used the talents of Taye Diggs, John Cusack, and George Lopez; with Hell on the Border, he told the story of the first black U.S. Marshal Bass Reeves pursuing evildoers while wrestling with America’s racism in the Old West with the help of David Gyasi, Frank Grillo, and Ron Perlman. Each time, there was an entertaining story that appealed to the masses, but there was something deeper going on each time as well. 

Now, with A Day to Die, Miller spins a tale about a group of ex-Special Forces soldiers who come together after one of their own is threatened, built around the talents of Bruce Willis, Kevin Dillon, Brooke Butler, Vernon Davis (yes, the ex-tight end), Leon, and Grillo again. Straight B-level action film, right? No. There’s again something going on here about the infinite striations separating good from bad, and covering all the space in between. 

Miller still articulates his desire to tell stories that entertain without preaching to people, but admits that he’s trying to make people think. “People who seem good aren’t always; people who seem bad aren’t always,” he says. “Good things are done for bad reasons and bad things are done for good reasons. Sometimes, that’s what it takes to change the system.”

In A Day to Die, the audience is challenged to see how people on both sides of the legal system actually want the same things – safety, better for their children, a prosperous future, while also acknowledging that the system is biased. Rather, more than biased – aimed at lifting some up and holding others back. “Why is it possible that a subset of Christians is afraid to admit or address bias? How can you really effect change?” asks Miller. “I want folks to discover and find the ability to change. Maybe some people won’t get it because they don’t want to see it. But if they’re open to it, they can see and identify things in the film.”

One of the ways that Miller draws the audience in is through Butler’s kidnapped police wife. She’s not a throwaway character – Miller says being raised by a single mother makes him aware of the power of a woman’s story – so he made sure that she wasn’t helpless. “She’s the strength of the film, maintaining a steely calm even when she’s kidnapped. If her relationship with Pettis (Leon’s character) doesn’t work out , then the film doesn’t work.”

Working with known actors the way he has, Miller has learned from each of the actors who excelled at what they do, helping him to become a better director. He admits that he had to be ready, prepared for each shoot, because otherwise they would’ve steamrolled him! But their relationships grew throughout each movie, and they trusted him to tell the story. 

Now, looking back and looking forward, Miller sees the way he now digs into the script, building a tool box of creative tools that keeps expanding. He learns from each mistake, and continues to work on showing more than telling. Not everyone appreciates that – that Miller is growing and adapting, balancing his faith in filmmaking and the reality of the world around him. But he perseveres, and continues to grow, holding a mirror up to society (and the church) to challenge us to be better – to follow Jesus more closely. 

It’s why I first became a fan, and why I’ll keep waiting expectantly for what lawyer-turned-director Wes Miller does next.

1on1 with Dana Canedy (A Journal for Jordan)

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I recently had the chance to speak via Zoom with Dana Canedy, who wrote the book A Journal for Jordan about her fiancé 1st Sergeant Charles Monroe King who wrote a journal for their yet unborn child prior to being killed in Iraq. The film version of the book is directed by Denzel Washington and stars Michael B. Jordan and Chanté Adams. Ms. Canedy is a Pulitzer prize-winning journalist who is now Senior Vice President of Simon and Schuster. She has written for the New York Times

I’m sensitive to the fact that even though it’s been a number of years since the events in the film, the writing of the book, the making of the movie, and now all these interviews you’re doing can stir up many emotions for you and for your son. So how are you feeling about it all at this point?

Thank you for appreciating that. I have a mix of emotions. I’m mostly really humbled and grateful. The fact that people all across the country care about the story and are sending me hugs and sending me emails is very healing for me. There are some days I’m really overjoyed and other days are difficult. When we were shooting the scene in Arlington Cemetery was one of the worst days of my life. One the whole I think it’s a beautiful story. I’m grateful for this experience and hopefully there are some words of encouragement in the movie that will resonate with people with their own struggles, to help them get through. So if I can serve in any way, my story and my loss, and how to deal with tragedies and serve to inspire someone else and help them through, then it’s okay. I’m happy to go through it.

In the production notes you’re quoted as saying you were willing to trust Denzel Washington with this project because “In this order, I knew Denzel was a Christian man and a good family man. And then I knew he was the best at what he does.” Can you speak a bit about the importance of who Denzel Washington is as a person as it relates to this project?

I think who he is as a person as it relates to this project is as important as who he is in Hollywood, in the sense that he made this personal. He started many of the shoots in prayer with the cast. He got to know me and my son over time. We’ve been thinking about and talking of doing this for thirteen years. So Jordan’s sixteen and I have pictures of him holding Jordan on the set of one his other movies when Jordan was three years old. He made this very personal. In fact, at one point several years ago, he was reading through the script and he was pretty emotional about it and called me about it. I told him “We’re no longer characters on a page to you; we’re people.” And so, I think part of the beauty of the movie is that everyone involved made it personal, and you can see that with the performances.

You also mention that part of what your fiancé wrote about was his love of God? How did you see that form him as a man?

He was a deeply Christian man who grew up in the church and read his bible every day. I used to watch him read and pray and he wrote in a prayer book. He’s the only man I ever dated who I felt comfortable praying with. God was at the center of his life. He really was. In fact, his pastor at his childhood church asked him, “You’re such a Christian man, how can you be in the military?” He said, “The military needs Christians, too.” Faith was at the heart of everything he did. I grew up in a very nontraditional religious household, and he helped me, actually, grow in my faith. That is one of the blessings of having known him and spend so much time with him, to watch a man of faith practice his faith.

Also in the production notes, you talk about the two different ways your fiancé was known: The warrior that the soldiers knew as “Top” and the man you describe as the gentlest man you ever met. What was it like to discover new dimensions to this man?

Incredible. It was absolutely incredible. Incredible for the soldiers and incredible for me. When I described the man I knew to the soldiers, they said “Ma’am, we never met that guy.” He was so different at his home. He had all these little flecks of gray in his mustache, and he used to let me take my mascara wand and color it in. That’s who he was at home. Of course, that’s not who he was as a military leader. He really had these two different parts of his personality that he balanced very well. To this day it makes me smile and laugh that this fierce warrior could also be so gentle. Though I shouldn’t be surprised because he was an artist who specialized in pointillism—creating beautiful three-dimensional drawings with dots of paint. He would draw children and old people and soldiers and landscapes

As I mentioned I haven’t seen the film yet, but how do you feel Michael B. Jordan did in capturing that complexity?

First of all I was struck by how much they looked alike, so that was incredible. He, again, put in a lot of time researching the role. The first day I went to the set, I took a small duffle bag that had the actual journal in it and Charles’s dog tags, and his Purple Heart. Michael wore the dog tags on set that day, and was very emotional about it. So I think he really understood that there was a boy at the heart of the story, whose name was Jordan, who’s a real person, and he had this unbelievable measure of respect for Charles. So he put in the time to talk to me a lot, to read through my book and the journal to understood us as people. And he brought all that to bear on the performance. He captured him perfectly.

NEW YORK, NEW YORK – DECEMBER 09: Dana Canedy and Jordan Canedy attend the World Premiere of “A Journal For Jordan” at AMC Lincoln Square Theater on December 09, 2021 in New York City. (Photo by Theo Wargo/Getty Images for Sony Pictures)

 Is there a kind of weirdness to watching yourself being portrayed on screen?

Oh, no. I mean, I’m so grateful. This is such an awesome, amazing experience, by the grace of God, to be able to tell my story—our story—to share that. I don’t think of it that way at all.

This is a story about fatherhood, but in a very different way than most films. How would you describe the concept of being a father that this film creates?

I think what it does is it doesn’t create an example of fatherhood. It gives an example of the epitome of fatherhood. You know, a man who found a way to be present for his family and his son after he was gone. I tell Jordan all the time “You’re having an ongoing conversation with your father that many people don’t have with fathers who are living.” The fact that he tried so hard and worked so hard at anticipating what he’d want to say to Jordan over the years is unbelievable. There are entries in the journal that mean a lot to Jordan at sixteen years old, but, as you can imagine, there are other things that are going to be even meaningful for him on his wedding day or when he becomes a father. Charles was able to anticipate all of that while writing this from a war zone. I can’t think of a better example of a father who is loyal and thoughtful and caring and loving. It’s why I chose him.

A Journal for Jordan is now available on Blu-ray and On Demand.