ScreenFish

where faith and film are intertwined

Interviews

TIFF ’22: 1on1 with Odunlade Adekola, Omowunmi Dada and Deyemi Okanlawon (THE KING’S HORSEMAN)

by Leave a Comment

Seun Olowo-Ake had the privilege of talking to Odunlade Adekola, Omowunmi Dada and Deyemi
Okanlawon, fellow Nigerians, and stars of The King’s Horseman about their film. In this interview, they
discuss reclaiming culture in a Western world, the duty of actors, and celebrating diversity.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

Olowo-Ake: I’m so excited for everybody to see this film when it comes on Netflix, and I wanted to start by honouring Mr. Biyi Bandele who wrote and directed the film. What was it like working with him on set?

Adekola: Biyi was a wonderful person. Personally, to me, Odunlade Adekola, he’s a wonderful director.
Every good thing about a director was in Biyi Bandele. He allowed you to think, to experiment and to
bring your own ideas on set. Sometimes, he would come over and ask, “how far? How do you see that
particular scene? Is it okay?” If I said, “I think it’s better this way,” he would say, “okay. Let’s try it.” That
was Bandele, always giving room to be an actor on set. We miss him.

Okanlawon: He was such a beautiful man. He is a director who lets you do you and then comes and
whispers in your ear, and that little insightful guidance just colours the entire scene differently. The
premiere was heavy because, watching the movie, having had these series of conversations with him, I
could literally feel his presence right behind the screen, like a conductor. I miss him. He would have
been so happy and very proud. I’m proud of him.

Dada: I had been a huge fan of his work- first his literary work because he started out as a writer- and
then when I saw Half of A Yellow Sun, I knew I wanted to work with him as an actor. I had been looking
forward to that opportunity, and when The King’s Horseman came calling, I was so excited. I first met
him at the rehearsal, and he was just so sweet! I would say first that he’s a very humble man. He’s that
director that wants to make sure you’re very comfortable. As an actor, he allows you to be. He wants to
see how you’re going to interpret a character because at the end of the day, as much as it is his film,
you- the actor- are the vessel with which this story is going to be told. It was a breath of fresh air
working with him. He was peaceful, calm, creative, jovial and such a hard worker. We truly wish he was
around for the premiere, but one thing we know for sure is that he was smiling down at us, seeing us
celebrate him, and I can’t wait for the world to see the magic we’ve created.

Olowo-Ake: A big theme in the film is ‘duty’. One of the core conflicts is that Elesin Oba hasn’t done his
duty to his people and then his son, Olunde, takes on this duty, “I will do on my father hasn’t.” As an
actor, do you feel a sense of duty when you’re approaching a film? And if you do, what is that, and how
do you bring that to your work?

Okanlawon: That’s a pretty interesting question. Yes! I think acting is one of the most honourable
professions ever. As with every other art form, but I’m an actor, so I’ll put acting above everything else
in that it really brings art to life. My job, my purpose, my mission as an actor really is to paint this picture in the most realistic form. And so, I feel a heavy burden in that, it’s not just about me. I want to be the best version of myself in my craft, and I owe it to myself, but beyond that I owe it to the audience, the story itself, for this film- our history. There’s a sense of duty from that angle then there’s to the people who are watching, to the hundreds of thousands of young actors who need an example of professionalism and craftsmanship, to my family, because film easily lend itself to legacy. So, you want to leave a legacy that your family and your friends would remember you by for generations to come. So yes, I feel a huge sense of responsibility.

Dada: For me as an actor, when I get a script, the first thing that compels me is the story: the story that needs to be told. I know that as talented as I am, it’s not just for me, it’s for the consumption of the whole world. And when a story gives me that opportunity, I take it upon myself to deliver. To not just act as that character, but to be that character so that that audience can really suspend their disbelief and it will be very easy for them to learn the things they need to from the story. I also believe that art is not just for entertainment; it’s for education, enlightenment, social emancipation and to make the world a better place. I know that I have the talent and that the onus is on me to make the world a better place, and I do that script by script, character by character.
Adekola: She has said it all [laughs]. I think as an actor, you have to be disciplined. Discipline is the key. If you’re disciplined, you’ll be able to interpret anything you want to and have total concentration on what you want to do. As an actor, that’s the first thing, no matter how talented you are. If you’re not
disciplined, if you don’t try to caution yourself, mostly when you’re on set, you’ll miss the track. So, it is a great duty for any actor. Elesin Oba [the film] speaks a lot about morale and about culture. If you
watch the film, every part of it is a great lesson for everyone.

Olowo-Ake: The film is based on the play, Death and the King’s Horseman, written by Prof. Wole Soyinka and in the play, he critiques colonisation and westernisation. In the film, we even see there is a clash of two cultures, and we’re finding with the way the world is now, lots of countries are westernized. Is there an element of our culture that you see isn’t being practiced anymore but you wish was still being practiced today?

Adekola: We don’t need to shy away from the fact that we’re in a modern world. Everything has really
changed. But despite that fact, we’re still maintaining our culture. At the premiere, look at Wunmi
[Dada]; she came out in her beautiful cultural attire. Look at me with my agbada, look at Adeyemi
[Okanlawon]. We’re still maintaining that sense of belonging, that we came from somewhere and we
need to represent them positively.

Okanlawon: I think humanity was built to evolve. Like young kids, they will grow. You want to guide that
growth, not yank things out of their lives and imprison or destroy certain things. You want to nurture.
And Africa in general and Nigeria, specifically, I feel like our growth was truncated. When we say, “the
rest of the world is westernised,” that is a truncation of growth. We were forced, I mean literally forced-
at gunpoint- to accept a different culture. We were brainwashed to see our culture as being inferior.
That act of westernisation is a group of people being brainwashed for whatever agenda. And so, I don’t know that there are things that I would say that I miss, or I would like to bring back. We’ve evolved. Even the westernisation phase has sort of started to pass. We’ve come to a place where we’re beginning to rediscover ourselves, and you can see it in our art especially- it will always start with art. That’s our responsibility as artists, to observe society and to speak to that. We see that in Afrobeats now taking over the world. Now, we are the ones doing the colonisation [laughs], but it’s on fairgrounds, nobody’s putting a gun to your head to listen to music. And then with Elesin Oba [the film], we can see some elements of our traditions that we can do without. But of course, the essence of who we are and our beliefs- the belief that we are a worthy race, that we’re meant to be here and not meant to be slaves to anybody, that we’re not second-class or third-class Global citizens, depending on who’s trying to be the judge of that. We have a place; we have a voice and it’s just really important that the world – and us- starts to accept that.

Dada: Westernisation has come to stay, and while we’re happy and embracing it, let’s not lose
ourselves. And it starts from our mother tongue. The truth is an Englishman will speak English because
that is their mother tongue; a Chinese person will speak Mandarin first because that is their mother
tongue. I know that things are getting better, but there was a time that people lost touch of their culture and tradition, most especially with our languages. Growing up, in Primary Schools when you speak your mother tongue, they called it ‘vernacular’. I think that is very rude and degrading, because you’re first African before you can embrace something else. You can’t give what you don’t have. You have to be whole in yourself to be able to embrace something else and love it. So, I would love that Africans embrace African-ness more and that we appreciate our culture; Yoruba, Hausa, Igbo, Swahili, whatever it is that is your mother tongue. I would love that every child that is being born to any culture first embraces who they are before embracing other things. Just be proud, basically! I love that the world is now celebrating Nigerian music as we’re producing more Afrobeats, and it’s the same for the Nigerian film industry. We’re now embracing our stories more than we used to, and the world is coming to learn about us, so it makes sense that we tell our stories how we know them and how we want the world to see them rather than the world coming to tell them however they want.

Olowo-Ake: Yes. I actually saw the play [Death and the King’s Horseman] in December at Terra Kulture, Lagos, and I heard Bolanle Austen-Peters [director and producer of the play] talking about how it was quite challenging to move it from the page to the stage. Were there any parts of the script or even if the play that you found difficult and how did you navigate that?

Adekola: It was very challenging to bring this wonderful story to life. But, like I said earlier, as an actor,
you have to be disciplined. As a disciplined actor, you sit down and think. There are a lot of actors out
there, but if you watch this movie, you’ll see how challenging the movie is for every one of us. It is not
ordinary Yoruba [laughs], the one that we speak every day, but it is a true and fantastic storyline that
you need to take the time to study very well. When I was back in my hotel room when we were filming, I would go back to my script, read it, and try to get it right. Even parts that I didn’t really understand, I
would call people, “what does this mean? I have another interpretation for this word,” and figure out
what they meant. So, there were a lot of challenges, but at the end… we killed it [laughs].

Dada: [laughs] We killed it. The first time I came across this piece was in secondary school, and the truth is it’s not one of Wole Soyinka’s easy plays, because it’s very poetic and colourful. Then I went ahead to study theatre arts at the University of Lagos. There were many times when I worked on this play as a literary piece. I critiqued it using many different approaches; from a Marxist point of view, socialist point of view, feminist point of view etc, so I had critiqued it many times. I also had the opportunity to play Iyaloja on stage, but of course, stage allows you to play different kinds of characters as long as your act goes out to the audience. Now, this is the film adaptation of it, and I will tell you that the experience is very different. First, Wole Soyinka wrote this in English, but our script came two ways; with the English and the Yoruba translation, so you could choose to read it in either language, although we knew we were going to do the film in Yoruba. Interestingly, the translation of this piece into Yoruba helped me understand a lot of the proverbs that Wole Soyinka had written in English that I didn’t understand.

Olowo-Ake: Wow.

Dada: So many things like the conversation between Elesin Oba and Iyaloja. When I read this piece in
Yoruba, I now truly understood what Elesin Oba was saying. This is why I was saying you cannot run
away from your roots, because it is who you are and there is so much knowledge when we dig deep into our roots. So, the script was totally different and enlightening. It made me see this piece from a whole different perspective. Second, the bride, my character, says no words in this film. I now had to, as an actor, birth the pain of the bride: her joys, her fears and her struggles through my expression and body language. That was all I had. It’s harder, but it was a beautiful experience and I love challenges [laughs], so I’m really happy that I could do it and I was super proud of everybody when I watched it.

Adekola: It was also good to have great actors on set. It’s one thing to have a good story, it’s another
thing to have great actors to interpret it.

Okanlawon: It’s a difficult play. First of all, kudos to everyone in the world who has ever tried to put this
on stage. I read the stage play, and I was like, “how on earth am I going to do this?” and I have a stage
background so that’s saying something. Then the script came, and I was really impressed that the
essence of the play was kept. It’s a different medium, right? So, it has to be adapted, for the screen and I think it was beautifully done. For years, I’ve been questioning our film philosophy- in Nigeria and in Africa. You watch European films; you can tell there’s a voice. There’s American films, there’s their voice too. You watch Asian films? You can sense there’s a philosophy, an ideology behind what they’re doing, and I never really found that in African films, even though we do great films. When I watched this film, it felt distinct and weird, initially. I thought, “there’s something different. It’s not like any other film I’ve seen,” and then I realised, “oh my word! Finally, I’m hearing our voice.” I was comparing it with other movies, and I stopped myself, “no, no don’t do that. This is Africa. This is us telling our story our own way.” And it was beautiful to watch. I mean the music! Oh, my word, the music and how they infused drums, and even the language- although I think we borrowed a lot of that from Wole Soyinka. The language was so poetic and rhythmic. And, of course, every time they moved the story away from us-the Africans- to the British, how they blended into the European classical sound was just beautiful.

Olowo-Ake: Yeah. That was my next question, actually. The music. I noticed that it’s a constant
throughout the film and it carried the story. What was that like listening to people sing live and the
music on set?

Dada: Yay! I’m a theatre baby [laughs] I have a video where Odunlade and I just burst into dance while
they were singing. It’s so beautiful! Our music tells who we are. It shows our pain, joys and celebration.
You cannot take an African away from their music and you cannot take music out of the African. The
music in this film helps to buttress a lot of messages, so for almost every scene, there is music that is
buttressing the mood, the tone, the message- everything is so intertwined. It’s really beautiful and I’m
happy that with this piece, so many people out there will also get to learn some Yoruba songs [laughs].
Odunlade had this surreal moment when we were watching it and when I asked him, “are you okay?” he said, “Omowunmi, you know African music gives me life.” [laughs]

Adekola: [laughs] Like our Executive Producer said, you can’t take music away from our culture. It’s part of everything we do. In this movie, as an actor, producer, filmmaker, you will learn a lot. Apart from the story, it is well shot with great actors and great music. You can understand the story from the music and dancing alone. The non-Nigerians at the premiere enjoyed the film-

Dada: Yes, they were so engrossed.

Adekola: The music really kept them engaged.

Dada: Yes. That’s why I say film and art are not just for entertainment, but to educate. If a Western
person who has never had any experience of the Yoruba culture watches this film, they will be a quarter Yoruba. You experience the culture in this film, from our music, chants, instrumentation, food, lifestyle, communal living, marriage customs, burial customs- everything ‘Yoruba’ was represented in this film. It is an expose of the Yoruba culture and tradition.

Okanlawon: The music was so beautiful. It really immersed us in our culture and reminded us of who we are and why we’re here. At some point, I wasn’t acting. Those words [referring to his character, Olunde, confronting British ideology], I was just speaking the truth. It’s not my truth or our truth, it’s the truth and I felt it needed to be said. Then Biyi whispered in my ear. He said, “They’ve not won, so don’t be angry,” and it elevated all my work.

Olowo-Ake: I was thinking about the idea of the Oriki [a praise song or poem recited amongst Yoruba
speakers] and how people who aren’t Nigerian would imagine it would give you an ego, but they also
remind you of who you are. If you’re about to make a stupid decision, I think an Oriki can say,
“remember where you’re from, remember who you’re supposed to be,” and that can actually guide you.

Okanlawon: That’s why names are so important to us. Our names have meaning, they are constant
reminder of who we are. My name is Adeyemi Okanlawon. That’s a sentence. That means something.
And I wake up every morning knowing this is who I am. “I am worthy of the crown, because I am one in a million.” That’s kind of how that translates. As a kid you do need that confidence boost, you know, and I grew into that and here I am. And I’m worthy of where I am. Orikis take that a step higher, singing your praise, reminding you of your achievements, where you’re from, where you’re going, your purpose. That’s what an Oriki really is. I think every African should have one. As a matter of fact, now that you mentioned it, I’m going to go back home, I’m going to get somebody to write me an Oriki and sing it and I’ll listen to that every morning [laughs]. Whatever happens happens. If my head explodes from ego, that’s my head’s problem [laughs].

Olowo-Ake: I like history and I wish all of us knew more about our history, but I’m glad that art is helping us find out who we are again. What is one thing you hope audiences- especially Nigerian audiences- take away from this film when they see it?

Adekola: That we’ve retained our culture and are trying to speak about what we do. We’re trying to
project our culture to the world. All the non-Nigerians who saw this film now know more about us.
Someone said of all the Nollywood films they’ve seen; this one is exceptional. This movie is fully
packaged and everyone watching can learn something from it.

Dada: I would love for people to learn that we need to celebrate our uniqueness and diversity. I am an
African woman; I will never be an American woman. I have my culture, tradition and ways of life and I
respect myself with it. We need to respect each other’s culture and tradition. If someone else says this is how they do their thing, if it doesn’t hurt us, let’s respect it. I’ve learned that people belittle what they do not understand. Everyone is important and unique, celebrate people with their uniqueness. There’s no point trying to change them to being like you. I’m a black woman, I can never be white. A white person can never be black, but we’re all beautiful. God never makes mistakes. If He wanted everyone to be the same, He would create everyone to be the same, and God can never be mocked. So, I believe that this film will open people’s eyes to accept people more and to celebrate other people’s cultures.

Okanlawon: I know what it’s going to do. What it did to me and what it has done to a lot of people who
have seen it so far, and it’s in two parts. First of all, it’s a reminder to ourselves, who we are. And in
remembering, we start to question everything. I’ve been so fortunate to have grown up in an
environment that allowed me to question everything. I question everything, so, everything I believe in
now, I believe. It wasn’t stuff that was fed to me. I think it would help us ask these questions and regain
faith in who we are, in our tradition, in our culture, our religions and start to celebrate those things. The
second thing is it will be a signal to the world: that we’re here, and we’ve remembered. And they should be aware that we are now enlightened. There’s a warning in that too.

Olowo-Ake: Hm. Thank you so much.

TIFF ’22 1on1 with Amanda Forbis and Wendy Tilby (THE FLYING SAILOR)

by Leave a Comment

Recently, Seun Olowo-Ake (SO) got the chance to interview filmmakers of The Flying Sailor, Amanda Forbis (AF) and Wendy Tilby (WT) to talk about their film, the fragility of life and the role of art in making sense of it. Interview is edited for clarity.

SO: First of all, congratulations on your film. I saw it on the big screen and found it very immersive. There were times when I felt overwhelmed by what the sailor was going through, so it was a really nice watch.

AF & WT: Thank you! That’s really nice to hear.

SO: Yeah. And I found out that it’s based on a real story of an actual sailor who was involved in an explosion that sent him flying 2km, and that he landed unharmed, which is an insane story in itself.

AF: It is.

SO: When did you hear about this story and when was the moment you decided you wanted to make it into a film?

AF: We were visiting Halifax a long time ago- over 20 years ago as a matter of fact- and we went to the Maritime Museum, and they had a display about the Halifax explosion. There was maybe a paragraph on the wall about this one guy and his trip and I think Wendy said, “that would make a good film, just that trip.” So it was instantly an inspiring notion: ‘What would you do inside of that, being launched and landing?’

WT: We put it on the back burner for all these years because we did another film, but we never quite forgot it and we thought that would be a good thing to do. So we dusted it off, and we started to think about the ideas and near-death experiences- that was very inspiring; about how time slows down, what would that have been like visually and sound wise, and just this arc going from trauma into bliss and then the decision to go back into real life. Live or die, the sailor sort of hangs in the balance. So that was the structure, and then we like the fact that with animation we could make up stuff, we could just do what we wanted within that.

SO: A summary that was sent to us said that the film is an ‘exhilarating contemplation of wonder and the fragility of existence’. How do you incorporate those elements into the film as directors and animators?

AF: One of the things about it was that the actual sailor was probably about 22, but we very quickly decided that we wanted him to be middle aged because there’s just an inherent vulnerability in it. You know, he’s not a beautiful young guy flying through the air at all.

WT: We thought it would also be more fun.

AF: It’s funny. So, the entire film was a balance of beauty and horror, and funny and sad- you laugh, and you feel this poignancy at the same time. So, the vulnerability is kind of inherent in the idea in the sense that you think there’s a very good chance he’s going to die. As a matter of fact, if you don’t know anything about the film, you’d be sure he was going to die. I think some people are not even sure he lives at the end, when he wakes up on the ground. So, we had a pretty strong card there already.

WT: To the fragility question, in our minds we imagined the pinkness of his body in all of the smoke and debris, and there’s a frying pan and a chair and things going by- like a tsunami. People who are in tsunamis try to not get clobbered by junk, which is the biggest threat almost, even more so than drowning. So, there’s a fragility to this pink body and the nakedness. It’s almost like going back into the womb and being reborn. We loved that image, and that his movements when slowed down are balletic and kind of beautiful. And there’s that moment when he goes through the white light and he’s a little spec and it’s gone. Tere’s a beauty in that, it is like life is in the balance, but when he decides that he’s going to live, the plummet down then becomes very harsh again. We wanted that to be part of the trip because the decision to live is a much harder decision at that moment. To die in this beautiful moment is sort of the easier choice, but I think humans mostly have a will to live and that’s what he does. When he’s in this aftermath of an explosion it’s not going to be a very easy life after that.

SO: Out of curiosity, how long did it take you to make the film?

AF: Three years.

SO: Sometimes when people think of the fragility of life, they can get really inspired, ‘I need to do great things before my time is up,’ or they get overwhelmed and sad or they just resign themselves to it, ‘if it happens, it happens’. Where do you think you fall within those three categories?

AF: One thing that’s very interesting to us in this film is that most people who have met some kind of personal disaster have this moment of recognition of life before and after, and they meet right up in this intersection of where you find out that all your plans mean nothing, and life is this incredibly delicate thing. I’ve always felt that it makes me feel more alive. It’s not comfortable but you feel very very alive, and there’s something I treasure about that. I’m not anxious to go through horrible experiences but it’s very clarifying, and I think it can be all those things at once. You can be inspired by it and completely overwhelmed by it- I mean that’s sort of the hallmark of that kind of thing, is that it’s completely discombobulating. You are upended and you have to find a way to keep moving forward. So, I would say you feel all those things at once.

WT: Neither of us have ever been in a true near-death experience, but I think most people have little moments like that where suddenly, you’re reminded that life is precious and, for a short while anyway, you think, “I’ve got to make the most of it.” That often dissipates [laughs] and you forget and start to complain about things again, but I think it’s good to be reminded that it’s precious and to try to make the most of it, because we’re not here for very long.

AF: Apparently, people who go through those real near-death experiences afterwards mostly do not fear death at all. They think it’ll be a nice thing, which is interesting, and I think again, it’s very clarifying for them. It gives them an ease passing through life that they haven’t had before.

SO: Mm. On the sense of wonder, in my opinion, there seems to be a decrease of wonder in our society with all the access to information. Do you find that and how do you think we can preserve wonder?

WT: Talking about the digital world and information and amount of information that comes, sometimes you just want to unplug. I suppose one obvious thing is trying to get as much nature in your life as possible. That’s something that’s important to both of us, getting out into the woods or the mountains, definitely recharges our batteries. And then you appreciate the natural world. It’s funny and this isn’t quite what you’re asking, but we talked a lot about how to get a sense of wonder into the film and with the digital world in animation, where you can produce with computer graphics something that looks like a real human now, our instincts as filmmakers is to go back and do something really low tech because that takes us back to a sense of wonder. If you’re in a real theatre with live performers and somebody’s flying, you know that there are going to be ropes or something like that. In the world of CG animation, anything can happen, and it becomes less wonderous. It’s less exciting and interesting, so we’re always trying to go back to something old fashioned because I think that’s what captures that sense of amazement.

AF: I think your question taps into something that’s bothering me a lot lately in the sense that we seem to be getting more prosaic in our outlook. We’re a very concrete, money based, practical culture and there’s less and less room for humanities, for literature, for art, and that’s where the magic happens. Somebody makes something and it takes you someplace you didn’t expect, but you recognise it. There’s just this ineffable thing that we’re sharing and it’s hard to describe. That’s why you make art, because it’s hard to describe. We live in a culture that’s very impatient with things that it can’t describe, and I find it very disturbing because-

WT: Well, we’re uncomfortable with mystery.

AF: We’re very uncomfortable with mystery, and mystery’s fun, if you’re willing to give yourself over to it but if you’re not willing to give yourself over to it, where does it go? It just disappears. And I feel like we need to make a strong case for arts, for humanities, for just talking about what it is to be a human being, and that it’s a pretty mysterious business. We need to elevate these things as important in our culture.

SO: That’s my next question, actually. What do you think the place of art is in preserving wonder, but also in helping people make sense of the realities of life?

AF: I think it’s everything. It’s not the only way to make sense of the realities of life, but there’s a reason we’ve been doing it for as long as we’ve been homo sapiens. It helps us make meaning in life, which is an increasingly difficult challenge, I think.

WT: Yeah, I think a lot of people feel that art is a frill, or extraneous to our lives, that we should only put money into it if we’ve paid for everything else [laughs]

AF: [laughs] Yeah

WT: Because it’s just “entertainment”, whereas our view is it’s integral. The impulse to make art will always be there, but it’s hard for artists to make a living doing it because it’s not regarded as necessary in society so we’re always on the fringes. I mean, we’re lucky, we have the National Film Board, but I’m speaking much larger than that. It’s always quantified as numbers and audiences and ‘is it going to make its money back?’ and those are the wrong questions.

SO: Yeah, I can sense that too, because I’m a writer and I’m from Nigeria, and being in Nigeria saying, “I want to be a writer,” everyone was like, “what are you talking about? It’s not a real job, you can’t make money from that.” Now, being older, I can see that art helps our history and helps us learn where we come from so we can move forward and I’m glad to see it start to pick up where people are now supporting the arts more.

WT: I totally agree, and I think it comes down to what are considered priorities in education. I do feel sorry for the 18-year-olds who are trying to figure out what kind of post-secondary to do because I think they’re being encouraged to go into something that’s secure,

WT/AF: Go into business,

WT: Go into the trades, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but an education in the humanities and history and all those things will eventually enrich their lives and the world, but because it doesn’t have an immediate payoff, they’re not encouraged to do that and I find that worrisome

AF: I saw a quote from somebody famous, unfortunately I can’t remember who, but it was, “I feel sorry for people who don’t read because they’ve only lived one life, whereas a reader has lived thousands.” Ultimately the purpose of art is to connect us. We’re a culture that’s very fixated on our differences and they’re really not that great when you look at the big picture. Historically, art has helped us recognise commonalities and we really need that.

SO: What is one thing you hope audiences take away from the film when they see it?

WT: I think I want them to be moved. I would hope that there’s an emotion. Laughs are good, but we also want them to feel some poignancy for the sailor and to then take that outside of the film and relate to it in some way. But I hope that there’s emotion, that they’re not just dissecting it technically as the first response.

AF: Yeah. I agree with Wendy, that’s the main aim. But I would add too that I’ve been struck lately listening to interviews with artists, and the interviewer will cite some difficulty in their life and say, “how did you get through that?” And you think, “what are they supposed to do with that question?” I hope that by the end of the film, you think, “wow. What is that guy going to do now?” And that your first thought will be, “he’s got to find a pair of pants. That’s the first thing he’s going to do.” That’s the answer to that question, “how did you get through that?” You just got up the next morning. You just had some breakfast- or you didn’t- and you just trudged through the days until your life made sense again. I hope that somehow that is inferred and comes through the film.

WT: I hope ‘hope’ is in there. We know the film is benefitted by repeated viewings. One viewing is not enough because it’s fully packed, so we hope people will have an opportunity to see it again because I think it’s better that way.

SO: Thank you so much for talking to me today.

The Flying Sailor is currently playing at TIFF ’22 as part of their Short Cuts Programme.

Little Feet Forward: 1on1 with Dean Fleischer-Camp (MARCEL THE SHELL WITH SHOES ON)

by Leave a Comment

Sometimes, the smallest things have the biggest hearts.

Directed by Dean Fleischer-Camp, Marcel the Shell with Shoes On tells the story of an adorable knick-knack and his search for family. Marcel (voiced by Jenny Slate), a one-inch-tall shell with a single googly-eye, lives with his Grandmother as the sole survivors of a tragedy that saw his family disappear into the night. When a documentary director rents their home as an AirBnB, he cannot help but make Marcel his next subject. But, when the video goes viral online, Marcel begins to hope that these simple videos might lead to him finding the family that he lost and loves so dearly.

While Marcel may seem like a strange project, there’s something adorable and relatable about him that is deeply connecting with audiences. As the film continues to expand in North American theatres, Fleischer-Camp admits that the accolades and response have been overwhelming.

“It’s been amazing. It’s been so fun to talk with people and it’s been sort of surreal to me,” he beams. “We worked on this film for seven years. I remember when we premiered it at Telluride and I started hearing laughter and crying. It was just so moving and surprising. I was just like, “Oh yeah, that joke I forgot was funny three and a half years ago is really funny and gets a big laugh.” It’s thrilling. The memes that people have been making are incredible. I’m just grateful for the entire experience.”

One of the most unique aspects of Marcel is Fleischer-Camp’s decision to shoot the film using documentary techniques. In doing so, he brings a sense of reality to the project that other animated fare are unable to do. In fact, for him, the documentary style was always part of the concept.

“I’ve always been [interested in] documentaries and have worked on documentaries,” Fleischer-Camp explains. “I’ve also worked on things that blur the line between documentary and scripted narratives. So, it’s always been something I’m exploring. To me, it provides a way for an audience to have an intimate interaction with a character that does away with sort of the artifice of what you might get from a Pixar movie or a Disney movie that doesn’t have that approach. I think that, for whatever reason, stripping that away allows people allows people to respond to Marcel. He’s a real person. So, that inspired it.” 

“The original shorts, although they were so short,… were [also] a documentary format,” he continues. “I had intentionally edited it to feel sort of like a rough cut of a documentary. It cuts them off mid-sentence and things like that. It always felt like part of the magic that those shorts bottled. [There is] this great tension that happens when you combine stop motion, which is like the most labor intensive pre-visualized art form on earth with this aesthetic or film grammar that feels like its unquestionably spontaneous and authentically documentary. When you combine those two things, I think it’s just total magic. So, I was really focused on preserving that for the feature.”

Originally conceived as a series of YouTube shorts by Fleischer-Camp and his writing partner, Jenny Slate (who also voices Marcel), they did not know that people would respond to their beloved character. But, when they became an internet sensation, they knew that they had more story to tell. In fact, Fleischer-Camp contends that he always wanted to bring him to the big screen.

“It was always kind of the plan to turn this character into a feature,” he points out. “At the time that I made the shorts, I was an editor for a living, doing the worst editing gigs and was interested segueing into directing. So that was kind of always the plan. But after the first one took off, when something goes viral or is popular on the internet, you can get meetings with all the major studios and do this sort of water bottle tour of Los Angeles, but they’re not going to trust you to make your weird feature. They just want you to license your beloved character to them to make something that is a more familiar kind of tentpole franchise.” 

“Going through that process, it was recognizable right away [that] I’m really young. They’re not going to trust me to do this. We’re going to have to make this film independently and it might take a long time. But, ultimately, I’m so glad that we had this more patient process and that we found the right supporters creatively, financially, that we could expand Marcel’s world in a good way that felt holistic to the character we made.” 

Although Marcel may be small, his emotional arc is massive in his first film. Even though they created the initial shorts quickly, Fleischer-Camp and Slate found that there was a beauty about the young trinket’s soul. With that realization, they knew that had created something special.

“There wasn’t too much thought put into [the original short],” Fleischer-Camp recalls. “We made it in [about] 48 hours. Jenny and I wrote it very quickly. She improvised and I crafted the character very quickly. It was all kind of a rush and just done on a whim because it made us laugh. But I think what we realized once we saw the response… was that this character is so much richer and deeper than he appears and that there was so much more to explore about him. There was such a rich, inner life. It always feels like a total pleasure to write for this character and create stories for him. I often feel like I’m like just as moved by and inspired by him and by his circumstances in life and his approach to life as anyone.“

Dealing with themes of grief and loss, there’s a seriousness to the film that is entirely unexpected. However, Fleischer-Camp believes that it’s the film’s willingness to lean into the shadows of life that makes Marcel’s journey so unique.

“I think that he’s inspiring for that reason,” he argues. “I think it’s part of the reason he resonates with so many people. But you can’t really have the happiness and the real nectar of life, if you haven’t also been through and process the grief of it. Part of what I was interested in portraying in this movie is that pain, grief and loss are an inherent part of the cycle of life. You cannot literally—in nature but also, at least I’ve found in my own life—you can’t create new growth without death and decay. Those things enrich the soil, that growth sprouts from.”

With the success of Marcel’s big screen debut, it begs the question of whether or not we’ll see more of the young tchotchke. Although Fleischer-Camp can’t predict the future, there’s little doubt that he’d like to see him have future adventures.

“I don’t know what the future holds for Marcel, but I hope it’s a lot,” says Fleischer-Camp. “I hope that after the film comes out, there’s audiences that will want to see [more]. I don’t know if it’s a sequel or a TV series or more shorts or what but I would love to continue to explore the character in whatever way is fun and cool and chill for me and Jenny. We created this whole community of characters that are only in the last three minutes in the movie. Spoiler alert. (laughs) I was so sad watching it [when I realized that] we’ve fleshed out all these great characters. Some of them have some of my favorite comedians, Nathan fielder, a fellow Canuck, as the voice talent. They’re so funny and so great and I hope we get a chance to explore those characters as well.”

To hear our interview with Dean Fleischer-Camp, click here.

Marcel the Shell with Shoes On is in theatres now.

A Day to Die Director Wes Miller Tells It Like It Is

by Leave a Comment

When I first met Wes Miller, it was 2016 and he was the writer/director of Prayer Never Fails, a little film about a basketball coach who gets in hot water for praying with one of his players. The film didn’t blow critics away, but I noticed that Miller moved known entities like Corbin Bernsen, Eric Roberts, and Lorenzo Lamas through a story that didn’t beat folks over the head with its faith (even if the title seems direct). We chatted about life, faith, and movies, and Miller’s transition from lawyer-to-director intrigued me. 

Over the next several years, Miller would send me his projects and ask for an honest evaluation of what I was seeing on screen. In River Runs Red, a story Miller wrote about an African American judge whose son is killed in a routine traffic stop and then pursues justice, he used the talents of Taye Diggs, John Cusack, and George Lopez; with Hell on the Border, he told the story of the first black U.S. Marshal Bass Reeves pursuing evildoers while wrestling with America’s racism in the Old West with the help of David Gyasi, Frank Grillo, and Ron Perlman. Each time, there was an entertaining story that appealed to the masses, but there was something deeper going on each time as well. 

Now, with A Day to Die, Miller spins a tale about a group of ex-Special Forces soldiers who come together after one of their own is threatened, built around the talents of Bruce Willis, Kevin Dillon, Brooke Butler, Vernon Davis (yes, the ex-tight end), Leon, and Grillo again. Straight B-level action film, right? No. There’s again something going on here about the infinite striations separating good from bad, and covering all the space in between. 

Miller still articulates his desire to tell stories that entertain without preaching to people, but admits that he’s trying to make people think. “People who seem good aren’t always; people who seem bad aren’t always,” he says. “Good things are done for bad reasons and bad things are done for good reasons. Sometimes, that’s what it takes to change the system.”

In A Day to Die, the audience is challenged to see how people on both sides of the legal system actually want the same things – safety, better for their children, a prosperous future, while also acknowledging that the system is biased. Rather, more than biased – aimed at lifting some up and holding others back. “Why is it possible that a subset of Christians is afraid to admit or address bias? How can you really effect change?” asks Miller. “I want folks to discover and find the ability to change. Maybe some people won’t get it because they don’t want to see it. But if they’re open to it, they can see and identify things in the film.”

One of the ways that Miller draws the audience in is through Butler’s kidnapped police wife. She’s not a throwaway character – Miller says being raised by a single mother makes him aware of the power of a woman’s story – so he made sure that she wasn’t helpless. “She’s the strength of the film, maintaining a steely calm even when she’s kidnapped. If her relationship with Pettis (Leon’s character) doesn’t work out , then the film doesn’t work.”

Working with known actors the way he has, Miller has learned from each of the actors who excelled at what they do, helping him to become a better director. He admits that he had to be ready, prepared for each shoot, because otherwise they would’ve steamrolled him! But their relationships grew throughout each movie, and they trusted him to tell the story. 

Now, looking back and looking forward, Miller sees the way he now digs into the script, building a tool box of creative tools that keeps expanding. He learns from each mistake, and continues to work on showing more than telling. Not everyone appreciates that – that Miller is growing and adapting, balancing his faith in filmmaking and the reality of the world around him. But he perseveres, and continues to grow, holding a mirror up to society (and the church) to challenge us to be better – to follow Jesus more closely. 

It’s why I first became a fan, and why I’ll keep waiting expectantly for what lawyer-turned-director Wes Miller does next.

1on1 with Dana Canedy (A Journal for Jordan)

by Leave a Comment

I recently had the chance to speak via Zoom with Dana Canedy, who wrote the book A Journal for Jordan about her fiancé 1st Sergeant Charles Monroe King who wrote a journal for their yet unborn child prior to being killed in Iraq. The film version of the book is directed by Denzel Washington and stars Michael B. Jordan and Chanté Adams. Ms. Canedy is a Pulitzer prize-winning journalist who is now Senior Vice President of Simon and Schuster. She has written for the New York Times

I’m sensitive to the fact that even though it’s been a number of years since the events in the film, the writing of the book, the making of the movie, and now all these interviews you’re doing can stir up many emotions for you and for your son. So how are you feeling about it all at this point?

Thank you for appreciating that. I have a mix of emotions. I’m mostly really humbled and grateful. The fact that people all across the country care about the story and are sending me hugs and sending me emails is very healing for me. There are some days I’m really overjoyed and other days are difficult. When we were shooting the scene in Arlington Cemetery was one of the worst days of my life. One the whole I think it’s a beautiful story. I’m grateful for this experience and hopefully there are some words of encouragement in the movie that will resonate with people with their own struggles, to help them get through. So if I can serve in any way, my story and my loss, and how to deal with tragedies and serve to inspire someone else and help them through, then it’s okay. I’m happy to go through it.

In the production notes you’re quoted as saying you were willing to trust Denzel Washington with this project because “In this order, I knew Denzel was a Christian man and a good family man. And then I knew he was the best at what he does.” Can you speak a bit about the importance of who Denzel Washington is as a person as it relates to this project?

I think who he is as a person as it relates to this project is as important as who he is in Hollywood, in the sense that he made this personal. He started many of the shoots in prayer with the cast. He got to know me and my son over time. We’ve been thinking about and talking of doing this for thirteen years. So Jordan’s sixteen and I have pictures of him holding Jordan on the set of one his other movies when Jordan was three years old. He made this very personal. In fact, at one point several years ago, he was reading through the script and he was pretty emotional about it and called me about it. I told him “We’re no longer characters on a page to you; we’re people.” And so, I think part of the beauty of the movie is that everyone involved made it personal, and you can see that with the performances.

You also mention that part of what your fiancé wrote about was his love of God? How did you see that form him as a man?

He was a deeply Christian man who grew up in the church and read his bible every day. I used to watch him read and pray and he wrote in a prayer book. He’s the only man I ever dated who I felt comfortable praying with. God was at the center of his life. He really was. In fact, his pastor at his childhood church asked him, “You’re such a Christian man, how can you be in the military?” He said, “The military needs Christians, too.” Faith was at the heart of everything he did. I grew up in a very nontraditional religious household, and he helped me, actually, grow in my faith. That is one of the blessings of having known him and spend so much time with him, to watch a man of faith practice his faith.

Also in the production notes, you talk about the two different ways your fiancé was known: The warrior that the soldiers knew as “Top” and the man you describe as the gentlest man you ever met. What was it like to discover new dimensions to this man?

Incredible. It was absolutely incredible. Incredible for the soldiers and incredible for me. When I described the man I knew to the soldiers, they said “Ma’am, we never met that guy.” He was so different at his home. He had all these little flecks of gray in his mustache, and he used to let me take my mascara wand and color it in. That’s who he was at home. Of course, that’s not who he was as a military leader. He really had these two different parts of his personality that he balanced very well. To this day it makes me smile and laugh that this fierce warrior could also be so gentle. Though I shouldn’t be surprised because he was an artist who specialized in pointillism—creating beautiful three-dimensional drawings with dots of paint. He would draw children and old people and soldiers and landscapes

As I mentioned I haven’t seen the film yet, but how do you feel Michael B. Jordan did in capturing that complexity?

First of all I was struck by how much they looked alike, so that was incredible. He, again, put in a lot of time researching the role. The first day I went to the set, I took a small duffle bag that had the actual journal in it and Charles’s dog tags, and his Purple Heart. Michael wore the dog tags on set that day, and was very emotional about it. So I think he really understood that there was a boy at the heart of the story, whose name was Jordan, who’s a real person, and he had this unbelievable measure of respect for Charles. So he put in the time to talk to me a lot, to read through my book and the journal to understood us as people. And he brought all that to bear on the performance. He captured him perfectly.

NEW YORK, NEW YORK – DECEMBER 09: Dana Canedy and Jordan Canedy attend the World Premiere of “A Journal For Jordan” at AMC Lincoln Square Theater on December 09, 2021 in New York City. (Photo by Theo Wargo/Getty Images for Sony Pictures)

 Is there a kind of weirdness to watching yourself being portrayed on screen?

Oh, no. I mean, I’m so grateful. This is such an awesome, amazing experience, by the grace of God, to be able to tell my story—our story—to share that. I don’t think of it that way at all.

This is a story about fatherhood, but in a very different way than most films. How would you describe the concept of being a father that this film creates?

I think what it does is it doesn’t create an example of fatherhood. It gives an example of the epitome of fatherhood. You know, a man who found a way to be present for his family and his son after he was gone. I tell Jordan all the time “You’re having an ongoing conversation with your father that many people don’t have with fathers who are living.” The fact that he tried so hard and worked so hard at anticipating what he’d want to say to Jordan over the years is unbelievable. There are entries in the journal that mean a lot to Jordan at sixteen years old, but, as you can imagine, there are other things that are going to be even meaningful for him on his wedding day or when he becomes a father. Charles was able to anticipate all of that while writing this from a war zone. I can’t think of a better example of a father who is loyal and thoughtful and caring and loving. It’s why I chose him.

A Journal for Jordan is now available on Blu-ray and On Demand.

Colony of Bats: Toronto’s Eaton Centre goes Batty

by 1 Comment

The CF Toronto Eaton Centre has officially gone batty.

In partnership with Warner Bros. Canada, the Eaton Centre is celebrating the release of Matt Reeves’ The Batman with a stunning exhibit in the central concourse that will surely draw attention. From now until March 8th, The Batman’s Colony of Bats invites viewers to stop by to untangle a mystery of their own. 

Created by Rooftop Agency, Colony of Bats is a striking piece that uses forced perspective to move seamlessly between a flock of more than 10 000 bats mid-flight and the logo for The Batman. In celebration of its unveiling, David Videka, the president of Rooftop Agency, notes that the exhibit’s massive size makes it a particularly unique experience in the famed shopping centre.

“It’s certainly large,” muses Videka. “It’s 32 feet long by 12 feet high by about 9 or 10 feet wide. It’s one of the largest things ever to go into the Eaton Centre. They usually cap build at about 10 feet. So, I think only their Christmas tree has us beat at this point for the height.”

Inspired by The Batman’s noir aesthetic, Videka wanted his installation to offer the same sorts of surprises that Matt Reeves’ film gives audiences. As such, the most important question in the development of Colony was how they could turn the piece into a ‘riddle’ of its own for viewers to unravel.

“Without a doubt, the movie inspired us the most,” Videka recalls. “To start with all these things, you have to take it back to the very beginning and try to really get a good grasp of what are the writers, the directors (and) the talent are all trying to say. What’s trying to come across in the movie, right? It’s one thing to sit around and say, ‘Oh, this would be cool to do.’ And, you know, sure, that’s a fantastic way to come about things, but this is art. This is a movie, this is cinema. The idea that we need to use that as the starting point is kind of the most important thing. We work alongside with Warner Bros. [and ask] how do we do these movies, especially something like Batman, justice.”

“What we really wanted to reflect [from] the movie is that things aren’t always as they seem, especially when we have a character like the Riddler involved. That was a really key component for us. So, by playing off of all the different twists and turns and the edge-of-your-seat sort of moments of the movie where there’s always something different happening and you’re never quite sure if you gotten to the right answer or not, we took these twists and turns and [wondered] what if we used a forced perspective art installation piece? It provides a multitude of different ways to look at a problem before you realize that, if you get it just right, everything would be revealed the way it was meant to be. We feel that this really comes to life when we look at the installation from all angles. When you’re looking at it from pretty much every perspective, it just looks like a flock or a colony of more than 10,000 bats mid-flight. But, if you stand in just the right place and figure out the riddle in just the right way, it reveals the logo, which is really striking and visually attractive… You know, so it’s been really fun to kind of mess with people’s minds in the same way that the movie does to the viewer.” 

While any art installation of this size would be a massive undertaking, Videka recognizes that Colony of Bats was particularly intricate in its detail. Even so, he and his team were excited to take on the challenge.

Says Videka, “There’s over 10 000 bats, all digitally cut through 3D rendering. [It was a challenge] to establish the individual bat sizes, how many bats per layer, and the amount of layers required to make it the most effective illusion. Again, it’s when you get up close and you look at it, there’s a lot going on. That’s sort of the fun. When you step way back and you take those 10-15 feet back and you look at it, it looks so simplistic. It says The Batman, but when you get in on it, you realize that we have to take into consideration how many bats to hang, but also there’s 56 different… opaque, hanging apparatuses that the bats sit on. So again, 10 000 divided by 56 equals how many bats and what direction do they go? Which way do they hit the light so that it reflects properly and spells the proper letters in the name and then the name itself? What vantage point do we need? Again, you’re going into a mall with a pre-conceived walkway so people are coming a certain way and you want to make sure that they see The Batman when they’re coming in.”

“So, there’s a lot of technical sort of things that go into the idea and the mathematics behind it. But, I think that’s what the challenge and fun is, right? Hey, look at it like this. Batman, he’s the best. He is badass. He’s got these gadgets. He’s all these things. And he uses technology to his advantage. And again, like as nerdy as that might seem, that’s really how deep we get. [We say,] ‘Hey, this is so difficult to do. Only maybe one person could do it and that’s probably Batman. So, you know, let’s give it a shot.’” 

In addition to the technical challenges of Colony, Videka also points out that he had to consider the different types of people that will see his work. From casual passersby to avid fans, his goal was to create something that was meaningful for everyone. 

“When you’re building something like this, you have to think of what are the different levels of consumers or fans that are going to come by and how do you relate to all of them?,” he identifies. “You’re going to have someone that’s going to come by and just be like, ‘Wow, this is really cool. I like the Batman. I know the Batman, and I’m really intrigued with this’ or you’re going to have people that come by and [think they] know everything about Batman and want to pick it apart to find out what’s wrong with what’s going on. The idea is you have to cater to all of those people. That’s sort of the fun of it because, if you can connect with all of them in a very unique way yet all within the same sort of structure installation, then you’ve accomplished your goal.” 

“Batman’s an 18-49, very mainstream movie. It has a lot of different audiences. It has a lot of different communities and sub-communities of people that love it for different reasons. It’s a heritage franchise. So, there’s a lot of people that grew up with it, like myself with Michael Keaton and Kim Basinger. That’s where I fell in love with it… So, you have to cater to all those different sorts of perspectives and mindsets. Yesterday, [we had] little kids freaking out because they saw the Batman artwork, elderly people, people that were in art or just working in the malls coming out of the stores, saying, ‘This is crazy!’ I certainly think we’ve more than achieved that goal and that was only the first day.” 

When he considers how he wants his audience to respond to Colony of Bats, Videka hopes that they’ll recognize that there’s always a mystery to life. For him, Colony is an opportunity for them to take pause and look for something deeper. 

“Things aren’t always what they seem and don’t take them for face value,” states Videka. “Everything is deeper, if you take a longer look and try to get to the solution versus just taking it and walking by. That’s what we heard a lot yesterday… From our perspective, we have brand ambassadors on site and they spent more time talking to consumers yesterday that I’ve ever seen them in 14 years. People just had so many questions. And again, I think that’s what you’re looking to do with the movie like this. There’s a lot of layers and don’t just take everything for face value.” 

The Batman’s Colony of Bats is on display now in concourse of the CF Toronto Eaton Centre through until March 8th.

Seeing Past the Smoke: 1on1 with Tony Hale (POUPELLE OF CHIMNEY TOWN)

by Leave a Comment

As we continue to move through the haze of the pandemic, sometimes it can feel like an endless haze has descended upon us all. Stuck in a seemingly endless mid-point, we continue to look beyond the COVID world, squinting to see some form of hope on the other side.

It’s for that reason that actor Tony Hale (Toy Story 4, Arrested Development) believes that his latest project, Poupelle of Chimney Town, is the movie we need right now.

“The story itself is based in this very popular children’s book of the same name and takes this little character named Lubicchi,” he begins. “He’s a little boy who lives in a town full of smoke and the father tells him that there’s stars above the smoke. And everybody in the town says, ‘You’re crazy. You’re crazy. You’re crazy.’ But Lubbichi believes [his father] and my character comes along and helps him on this journey to find the stars. I just think, man, after what we’ve all been going through these two years, just that hope of like, ‘Hey, we’re gonna get past this. There’s something on the other side.’ In addition to that, the animation is crazy beautiful. It has this kind of ethereal-like jewel-tone watercolor. It’s just so stunning. We, as voice actors, are a very, very small slice of this pie. Most of the pie is all the artists working on it.” 

Directed by Yuusuke Hirota, Poupelle of Chimney Town takes place in a city covered by a thick layer of black smoke that has prevented its people from ever seeing the sky. Though the people have accepted the darkness, young Lubicchi (Antonio Raul Corbo) clings to the stories of stars told to him by his late father, Bruno (Stephen Root). Working as a chimney sweep in order to pay the bills and care for his sick mother, Lola (Misty Lee), Lubicchi has become a social outcast and struggles to connect with other kids. However, his life changes when a man made of garbage stumbles out of the night. Naming his new friend Poupelle (Hale), Lubicchi accepts this ‘monster’ when others won’t and the two begin to look for the stars together. 

Branded a monster by the townspeople, Poupelle is kept at a distance by others out of fear. However, in Lubicchi, he finds a young man who (eventually) is willing to see beyond his exterior of garbage to the beautiful soul that lies beneath. In doing so, Hale believes that the film begins a conversation about the poisonous nature of labels and how they limit our ability to connect with people. 

“[A label is] so toxic because it kills uniqueness and what somebody is bringing to the table when they’re being forced to fit into a category or a mold,” he explains. “And the fact is there’s a lot of different branches to the tree of humanity. There are so many different branches, but we don’t feel comfortable with that almost, you know? And so [a label] is incredibly toxic because it’s restrictive. That made me think of when I did Toy Story 4, there was this character named Gabby Gabby in the store and she was considered the evil doll. Forky, my character, didn’t know anything so he just kind of got started getting to know her. Everybody was putting a label on her and he just got to know her, much like Lubicchi was Poupelle. And because of that breaking through, that union, the labels came off and you be able to hear the person’s story. You can be able to get past their trauma and see their humanity and man, what power is that?” 

Although Lubicchi cares about Poupelle, their relationship definitely has its conflicts. As their push/pull dynamic comes into play, Hale sees that both characters have issues that they’re working out. Even so, he also believes that the trust between them is rooted in their willingness to truly see one another.

“It’s like any friendship, kind of,” says Hale. “Also, Poupelle is kind of this being made of garbage come into the town and he’s dealing with his own [questions about] what’s going on. But I think it’s always about trust. Lubicchi hasn’t had a lot of support from the town [in regards to] believing his vision and where he’s going and you know, trusting that this Poupelle does believe in him. What I love about this relationship is it just takes that one person who believes in you and sees you that gives you the strength to do it. Poupelle really sees Lubicchi and he really believes in him.” 

With this in mind, one of the key tensions within the film lies between Lubicchi’s decision to ‘keep looking up and the Inquisitors’ commitment to snuffing out such beliefs. Asked why he believes Lubicchi’s views are such a threat to the powers that be, Hale argues that there is a certain amount of danger that lies within change itself.
“I think it’s a threat because change is scary,” he suggests. “Even though they live in a town of smoke and even though there’s this hope, change is scary. They don’t want to believe beyond their framework because they’ve created that [sense of] what I’m comfortable in. And so that’s scary. So, they’ll fight against that, but man not look up. I mean, I personally am a person of faith and I look up all the time because it brings a reference point to my life. It makes me know that I’m not in charge, which is a huge gift because it gets scary. So, it’s a huge source of strength for me.” 

Having said this though, Hale also argues that the sense of hope embedded within the film is what makes it so essential for audiences right now. Coming at a moment when we have all been beaten down so many different cultural issues, Poupelle of Chimney Town offers a message of strength and encouragement in a troubled time.

“Honestly, I think there’s a lot of beautiful movies, but there’s something [about] this movie that, for this point in time, [is] life-giving. It’s redemptive [and] it’s strengthening. Obviously, there are a lot of dark things out there. That’s also strengthening people because they might feel seen in certain ways, but the hope that this provides I think is the medicine that we need right now. Definitely.” 

Poupelle of Chimney Town is now available in select theatres.

To hear our complete conversation with Tony Hale click here (YouTube) or here (podcast).

1on1 with Clint Bentley (Jockey)

by Leave a Comment

I recently had the chance to talk via Zoom with Clint Bentley, the director and co-writer of Jockey. The film is the story of an aging jockey coming to the end of his career. He discovers one of the new young jockeys claims to be his son. The film won an Audience Award at AFI Fest, and has been nominated for two Film Independent Spirit Awards.

I saw this at AFI Fest where you said your father was a jockey and you were raised in this world behind the barns. What was that like and how did it shape your view of the world?

You know, it didn’t feel weird at the time. We grew up in Florida, but we lived all over the place following my dad around the circuit to the point where my sister was born in Oklahoma City, just because that’s where we happened to be when she was born.

It’s such an interesting world, and such a lovely world. But I think in terms of shaping my worldview, it was seeing there’s a lot of people on the backside who all come from different places and all come from different backgrounds. A lot of them are wounded in different ways emotionally. But they create this family for each other and give each other what they need. And no matter how competitive they get in terms of winning, they all really want to take care of each other for the most part and I think that really shaped me going forward.

 You spoke of some of those people and you have several non-actors in the film. What was it like getting them to share their lives?

The first time actors in the movie are such interesting people in their own rights that it didn’t take much to get them to be interesting on camera. It really was just a process of winning their trust and letting them know what the intent of the movie was, and then working in such a way that it didn’t feel like it was taking advantage of them in any way or manipulating them, just letting them be themselves on camera. Once I was able to do that and earn their trust, the rest flowed out. I have to say huge props to Clifton Collin Jr. for being able to guide a lot of them through those scenes. None of them had been in front of a camera before.

As they recite their injuries, that really gives you an idea of what it’s like to live that life.

Yeah. There’s a line in the movie that’s a direct quote from having hung out with a jockey. He was only like 24 at the time. I asked him “Have you ever been hurt bad?”  And he just listed off his litany of injuries: “I’ve broken my ankle and I’ve broken both collarbones, my nose so many times. I’ve broken my arm. But no I’m lucky, I’ve never been hurt bad.” I was thinking “Holy shit!” That tells you enough about the world and the job right there.

Jackson Silva, the main character, is struggling with aging and a body beginning to deteriorate. That’s an issue we all face at some point. But that seem to be less an issue for riders than fear. Does that seem like a fair statement of what Jackson is going through?

That’s a good question and it’s a really astute reading of it. Because it’s something that jockeys… they talk about getting hurt and it’s just part of the job as like if you’re delivering mail, getting a flat tire on the way to work or on the route is just part of the job. For them that’s breaking a collarbone; it’s that mundane for them. It’s not a question that they talk about in terms of if but of when. But breaking a bone and getting back on a horse or getting knocked unconscious and getting back on a horse, those aren’t things that mess up their career. It’s really getting the Fear –capital F Fear. They know it inside. If they’re nervous up on a horse on their tiptoes running forty miles an hour down the track with ten other horses around them, they’re not going to do well in the race, and they’re also potentially going to get their friends hurt, or the horse hurt or themselves hurt. It really is the thing that it’s really hard to come back from that once you get it. It’s what every jockey… it’s their fear to get the Fear.

One of the things that I found very interesting in your film was the number of scenes that were at dawn or at sunset. Sunset seems especially appropriate of Jackson’s story. Can you comment about how you used that visual aspect in your storytelling.?

It really came from, first, limitations opening up opportunities. We had a small crew and just a very small light kit, so we were going to be using natural light to shoot the movie And then Adolpho Veloso, our brilliant cinematographer, really lit on this idea that the connection between the sunset and the sunrise season of Clifton’s character Jackson being at the sunset of his career, and Moises being at the sunrise of his career. We leaned into that. And something that I didn’t even notice at the time, until Adolpho pointed it out, was that the rhythms of the life of a jockey match that of what we put in the movie. They wake up before dawn and they get on horses to exercise them. They exercise them until it starts to get hot in the day, then they take a break. They go off and they work out, or they try to figure out how not to eat a meal. Then the races are over by the evening. It really follows that same rhythm that we portrayed in the movie. It’s also very beautiful at that time.

You have an interesting relationship with your filmmaking partner Greg Kwedar. What kind of dynamic does that bring to making a film like this when you both consider yourselves directors, producers, screenwriters?

Actually, it’s a real blessing to be able to work with Greg. We’ve been working together for about ten years. Yes, both of us are writer/director/producers. We switch off back and forth. We write together and one produces for the other to direct, then we switch back and forth. It’s really not only supporting your friend. I do go through that and being able to support who you know very well, and know them not as a artist, but as a person. But then also having that person over your shoulder when you’re shooting something who’s also a director. Directing is a very lonely job. To be able to look back at someone else and say “I think it’s good, but is it good?” And for them to be like, “No, it’s not good,” or “Yes,” is really and amazing thing to have. Also, we’re different as artists and as directors. That difference makes each of our projects better because you’ve got somebody working on it who has different sensibilities and different thoughts and brings different things to the project that you’d never think of.

What are the two of you working on for the future?

We’ve got a film of Greg’s that hopefully we’ll shoot in the new year that is more in the vein of our first film, Transpecos, kind of a thriller with something more on its mind. Then, I love the way Jockey feels. Just trying to make more movies that feel like that.

The Voices of (Three) Generations: 1on1 with Rob Paulsen & Maurice LaMarche (ANIMANIACS)

by Leave a Comment

They’re Pinky and the Brain. One is a genius. The other’s insane.

Taken from their famed theme song, these simple words summarize the lovable relationship between the two animated laboratory mice from Hulu’s revived series, Animaniacs. Committed to taking over the world, the maniacal Pinky and the Brain have been beloved by millions since they first popped on screen almost thirty years ago. 

Beginning its original run in 1993, the rebirth of Animaniacs has meant that its unique brand of humour has impacted multiple generations of kids around the world. In light of this, voice icons Maurice LaMarche (‘The Brain’) and Rob Paulsen (‘Pinky’) are often amazed that these characters continue to endure and bring families together.

“It hit me at Comic Cons. I already knew that the generation that watched our show had hit their mid-thirties,” LaMarche points out. “It was when their little kids started pointing to Pinky and the Brain and wanting an autograph from them. And I’d ask, ‘how old is he?’ And they go, ’10’. I’d ask, ‘How does he know about Pinky and the Brain’? ‘Because I show it to him on the DVDs, the box sets, all of that.’ Now, we’re noticing that the dads that sat with their kids in the 90s are now the [grandparents] of the little kids who were asking for that picture with their kids. Three generations are standing in front of our tables at Comic Cons, asking for autographs. So, that’s kind of fun.” 

“That’s really unusual too,” chimes Paulsen. “I think the only other show I can think of that’s still in production is the Simpsons, where that would have happened. But we have gotten this incredibly glorious opportunity as a result of the stars aligning and Hulu. With a twenty-five year break in between, it’s so unprecedented to do it again, and then have all these world-class journalists talk to us about season two, and the show is now an unqualified hit again with an exponentially larger audience.”  

In light of their lasting legacy, it begs the question of what makes Pinky and the Brain such endearing characters? While their antics to take over the world are always hilarious, Paulsen argues that he believes it stems from the adorable relationship between the two characters.

“I think that what sets it apart for me is that it’s just a love story,” Paulsen explains. “Pinky and the Brain really love each other. I think one of the reasons that, um, that it translates pretty well to the screen is that life is imitated art. I love Maurice. We are the dearest of friends… So, if you’re going to be authentic, acting is acting. The whole idea is that you embody these characters. You don’t acknowledge the fact that it’s silly or otherwise. This is the truth. You are about taking over the world and supporting your guy, supporting the man (or the mouse) whom you believe has the best interest of the world at heart. Whether it’s nefarious or not is not, Pinky’s MO is that [he] believes that the Brain has the best of intentions and [he’s] going to do everything I[he]can to help him achieve his goal. Then, he hits [him] on the head for doing something stupid. So, that’s why I think they work together.” 

“It’s a show about a friendship,” LaMarche echoes. “It’s a show about what Peter Cook and Dudley Moore described as the ‘uninformed idiot and the informed idiot’. So, Brain, being the informed idiot who, though he is supposedly a genius, isn’t smart enough to know that a two-inch tall lab mouse that can’t possibly take over the world. So, he’s rendered harmless at that point. That’s another reason that people can get with him because they know he’s no danger. (Of course, setting aside the fact that he’s an animated cartoon.)” 

Thinking back to the very beginning, LaMarche notes that his voice for the character stemmed from the remarkable similarities in appearance to the great Orson Welles.

“The original design of Brain was very Orson Welles-ian and to the point that I actually, in my hubris, believed they’d created the character with me in mind,” LaMarche laughs. “I was notorious for doing Orson Welles whenever there was a break in recording so, I just thought, ‘Oh, they’ve created this Orson Welles lab mouse for me. The audition is a mere formality, my friend.’ So, I just laid down my Orson Welles, and then we went. He’s more angular now. I don’t know that I might’ve seen Orson Wells in there now and ergo, may not have ended up with the job. So, I’m glad we started it when we did.” 

With this in mind, Paulsen suggests that he also prefers the opportunity to bring his own unique take on the character, rather than attempt to meet the expectations of the director.

“For me, it was a six-week audition,” he continues. “I had five or six callbacks over a six-week period because it was a big deal. It was all a brand-new clean sheet of paper, lots of music. and it was a lot of ‘We’ll know it when we hear it’. To me, [that’s] a boon. I love it when a director or producer says ‘I want to hear your take on this and you give me what you got’. If somebody says ‘we’re very specific in what we want’, I can do my best but, if they’ve got it stuck in their head that no, that’s not getting close to what I want. I love it when I have a little control over what I can give them. When Moe walked into read for the Brain, once he opened his mouth and did Orson Welles, they were done… Had Mo not had the—he calls it hubris, I call it genius—but that ability to say, ‘Oh, wait a minute. I know what’s going to work here.’ He does it. Behind the glass, they just go, ‘Oh my God. All right. All the rest of you. Thank you very much.’ That’s what happens when you open it up to the actor’s interpretation.” 

Known for its boundary-pushing animation and style, Animaniacs has clearly found a new audience with its revival. Asked what he believes is the most exciting aspect of the series for him, Paulsen beams and immediately points to the series’ ability to remain self-aware and current with its humour.

“I love the fact that we’re self-aware and that we lampoon everybody, including ourselves,” Paulsen exclaims. “In fact, if you guys recall, in the revival’s… theme song, the first half is the old animation and the old lyrics. Then, it switches to the new stuff where we become self-aware. In fact, they even say ‘gender-balanced, pronoun-neutral and ethnically diverse. The trolls all say we’re so passe, but we did meta first’. That is freaking genius because it’s self-aware and right out of the shoot before one word of dialogue is spoken the theme son, lets you know what you’re in for? I find that really just so bad-ass really.”

Animaniacs is now available on Hulu.

To hear our complete conversation with Rob Paulsen and Maurice LaMarche, click here (YouTube) or here (audio).

1on1 with Kristine Stolakis about Pray Away

by Leave a Comment

I recently had a chance to visit via Zoom with Kristine Stolakis, the director of Pray Away, a Netflix documentary about the “ex-gay” movement and conversion therapy that hundreds of thousands of LGBTQ+ people underwent in the last fifty years. The basis of that therapy has been discredited and denounced by medical and psychological groups and outlawed for licensed therapists in some states. It continues to be done in many church settings, however. Pray Away will be available on Netflix on August 3.

In the press notes, you mentioned that the subject came to your attention by way of your uncle. Are you comfortable talking about that?

I appreciate you asking that, but yeah.

I got the topic because my uncle went through conversion therapy when he came out as trans as a child. He went through conversion therapy at a time when every therapist was a conversion therapist back in the Sixties. He was put on antidepressants, which was a pretty common treatment at the time, and that began a lifelong battle with various mental health issues which included addiction—prescription medication as well as addiction more generally—anxiety, depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, suicidal ideations, all these things that I’ve come to learn are quite common for people that go through some form of conversion therapy. I knew my uncle during a really special ten years of good mental health. He was my babysitter growing up. I lived 25 minutes away from him in Upstate New York. I spent most days after school on his couch with him telling me stories, which was very lovely and special and wonderful—a wonderful time in my life. As I got older the mental health challenges continued to mount. I really saw him live with his trauma and the aftermath of his trauma.

So when I went to film school, he passed away unexpectedly a few weeks before I went to film school, and I decided I wanted my first feature to be about the conversion therapy movement. When I started doing research, I was very prepared to feel very angry at the people who led the conversion therapy movement, because I’d witnessed first hand the pain and trauma that resulted from that teaching. I frankly anticipated finding straight, homophobic people and transphobic people running conversion therapy or ex-LGBTQ ministries, but what I found was LGBTQ Christians who claimed that they themselves had changed. And they were teaching others to do the same.

For me, that claim of change really helped me understand my uncle’s desperation that change was around the corner. Because until that moment it was really hard for me to understand why my uncle had committed basically his entire life to the idea of change, and he really believed that what I’ve come to understand as the ex-LGBTQ belief system that being LGBTQ in some way is both a sickness and a sin. It was the claim of change that these leaders made that really clicked in something for me about my uncle’s life. That’s when I transformed from a family member who cared about someone who hurt quite a bit to a filmmaker who said, “Oh, this is what I want to shine a light on.” This movement really is an example of hurt people hurting other people—of internalized hatred, homophobia, and transphobia being wielded outward. And a lot of my anger transformed into sadness, because I saw that this larger culture of homophobia and transphobia was essentially training leaders. That really is the way this movement works.

The other piece of the puzzle when I started doing research that made me go, “Oh, there’s really a film here”, is my growing understanding during the research process that this is something that continues into today. We know that nearly 700,000 people in the US alone have gone through some version of this. We know it’s been used on every major continent. And I say “major” because we don’t know of a recorded case in Antarctica. This is very present in many religious communities across the country. Both of those things, the idea of studying how power works, which is why the movement continues, even though, as many do in my film, leaders defect—leaders come out again and say “No, no, no, I didn’t mean the things I said. I was lying or I was lying to myself. I’m filled with regret. This is a terrible thing.” The movement continued despite  those leaders defecting. That was one piece of the puzzle I really wanted to make a film about. The other was to bring the history into the present and show that this movement that causes a lot of pain continues.

PRAY AWAY. Cr. NETFLIX

Early on Michael Bussee says “We were doing what we thought God wanted us to do.” How did that attitude affect how you tried to represent these people in your film?

I know first hand that many people heading conversion therapy or ex-LGBTQ movement are trying to do the right thing. For people who grew up religiously, or express what the right thing is through religion in some way, that can mean that they think God is asking them to do this. That is a very powerful motivator—to believe that you are on the path to change yourself—and a very powerful motivator to “help” other people. I think that motivation, those good intentions, can blind people to the pain that they’re causing. It can make them through denial, or sometimes through the structure of their ministries, push away people that don’t want to change anymore, that have addiction issues after going through this. It can blind leaders to the pain that they’re causing, because they are so motivated from what I think ultimately is a good place.

Something we talked a lot about in the edit room in making this film was trying to make a film that is compassionate. Because this is a movement in which the leaders are often victims of conversion therapy themselves. So we wanted to capture that, but we also did try in the film to hold leaders, both former and present, accountable by weaving in a survivor’s story as well, which is the story of Julie Rogers, who like my uncle, primarily participated in the movement through not being in the position of leadership, but receiving these messages as a teenager and then in her young adult phase. And that was how creatively we worked to say this does cause pain, true pain, witness this pain. And also, we did try to honor the fact that this is not a system of just bad apples. This is people, especially in the beginning that think that they’re doing the right thing, and in answer to your question, things that God might even be asking them to do this thing.

I’ll say one other piece of that, because it’s a really rich question, that I haven’t said in other outlets, and also know that you are someone who lives in a religious world. There is a very common idea in this world that I’ve seen a lot, which is that God shows his love through challenges, through pain, through suffering. I saw that a lot. I think that very sadly gets in the minds of many leaders, and participants, that if they are suffering, they are actually on the path to change. I think that for people who are trans and gay, suffering is a part of the package when you live in a transphobic and homophobic world. Asking people to suffer, it confuses people thinking it’s their responsibility to change rather than the world’s responsibility to change.

I would urge religious leader who are trying to figure out how to make sure, that they are being clear that they don’t support conversion therapy; they don’t support the ex-LGBTQ movement. They need to proactively affirm and fight for LGBTQ folks. Because the message that being trans and gay is wrong is so common and ubiquitous, I think in Christianity in general, that unless you actively fight against it, there’s a good chance that your congregation is going to get that message. I think underneath that is the assumption that you’re going to suffer, and that’s okay. We’ve got to stop that, and I think we can stop that if we see this as a way to prevent children suffering versus a political issue. Yes, that idea of suffering as a form of God’s love is an ideology that I see being passed around that I think ultimately hurts people.

PRAY AWAY. Randy Thomas in PRAY AWAY. Cr. NETFLIX

A good part of your film deals with the political power dynamic of the religious right. What was the main insight you discovered in that area?

I was very stressed and saddened by the way in which the Christian right, politically speaking, would use the stories of people who claimed that they had changed to support anti-LGBTQ legislation. So in our film that is explored through recounting the story of Prop 8 in California which made gay marriage illegal in the state in 2008. Outside of the scope of the film, we’re seeing that happen with anti-trans legislation, which is being passed a tremendous amount in the past year. We’re seeing the way in which people who claim to be ex-trans or claim to be detransitioners, those stories are being used to support legislation that takes away trans rights for everyone, whether or not you are religious.

That is very sad to me, because it’s taking people who are already in a very vulnerable place, who, again, are victims of homophobia and transphobia more largely and putting them on a stage and saying “Please fight against your own community’s rights.” And again, I think that those organizations, they have a choice as our culture changes and we understand, based on so much research and so much antidotally, that LGBTQ people need to be supported and protected and loved. They are not a threat, to say the least. They have an opportunity, I think, to support these people in being truly who they are, but instead I saw them use these people, and that is incredibly insensitive to me.

You avoid telling the horror stories of the people who had undergone conversion therapy, but you allude to the trauma that people went through. Was it tempting to go to some of those dark places to make the point of the pain caused?

We have recorded cases, and there are plenty of them, of people who go through conversion therapy and experience physical pain, electric shock therapy, aversion therapy. That is abhorrent. And the vast majority of conversion therapy does look much less like that and much more like talk therapy—like sitting in a room with an individual who is either a licensed counselor or more often someone who is a religious leader who is acting as a pseudo-counselor, or perhaps it looks like a Tuesday night Bible study on the subject of homosexuality in the Bible, where the belief system that being LGBTQ is sick and sinful gets pushed forward and it’s kind of like AA model peer support. We want in the film to make sure that the main way conversion therapy is practiced is represented, so that people who are doing this didn’t see the film and go, “We don’t do that. We don’t shock people. Therefore, we’re not doing conversion therapy.” That being said, like the physical manifestation of trauma through self-harm is extremely common in this movement. We do explore that in the film, and also allude to the fact that sadly suicide is quite common in this world. We know that you who go through this are more than twice as likely to have attempted suicide. That is something that we do touch on in the film.

A big problem with the conversion therapy movement is that a lot of people who do it don’t see themselves as doing it. Everyone has the stereotype that conversion therapy happens in camps in the woods and it’s electric shock therapy. Much more often it’s happening in your church, down the street, by a pastor who might think they’re doing the right thing, who’s teaching pseudo-psychology that’s been disproven that’s been passed through a chain of information to this gay kid who came to them for help. That is conversion therapy. Call it whatever you want—pastoral counseling, I’ve heard, for example. We need to create a common understanding that starts a dialog that what’s happening in your church down the street might not look like the conversion therapy idea that you have in your mind, but it is. That’s why we took the approach we did in the film.

We really did represent conversion therapy as it happens most often in our country. And it mostly does happen in religious organizations. We know that about two-thirds of conversion therapy happens within religious organizations—religious colleges, Christian ministries, churches. It’s only about a third or less that happens with licensed counselors. So if you see, for example that conversion therapy has been banned in X state, that’s only for licensed counselors. It is important to do that work, but it doesn’t stop it where conversion therapy happens most. We have to have a culture shift. We have to have a national and international dialog that sees conversion therapy for what it is. And we need churches to stop what they’re doing because unfortunately laws cannot stop that. It has to be people changing their minds. So we really want to reach those people with this film.

PRAY AWAY. Julie Rodgers in PRAY AWAY. Cr. NETFLIX

We see some of your subjects in church now as openly LGBTQ persons. But I know that for some people church is just too painful. Did you note spiritual injury among these people as you talked with them?

Yes, absolutely. I saw two main types of reactions regarding spirituality following an experience of conversion therapy. This is of course a generalization. One set of reactions is “My religious life is so important to me I don’t want to have to give that up. And I cannot continue to live as someone who’s trying to change their sexuality or gender identity.” And a lot of people do find, because it absolutely exists, religious communities that fully accept people for who they are, and again, not only accept them, but fight for their rights to dignity. And for some people that is so healing, to be able to be in a church and have a pastor say, “Not only welcome, but we’re going to lobby for the Equality Act next week.” That can be so healing for people.

There are some people, to your point, where just being in a church almost can create a PTSD-like response, because of the pain and trauma people have endured often when they were children. For those people, sometimes the healthiest thing to do is to step away from trying to be a part of a community where your religion, your spirituality, is expressed through organized religion. For that group of people, I’ve seen the fact that going to brunch on Sunday with friends becomes very healing. And that’s okay too. We are not here to tell people how to heal. How to find community is up to the individual. If people want to express their religious life through organized religion, they can absolutely find places to do that. If people want to step away from organized religion and that to them feels like healing, that’s fantastic. So, I’ve seen both.

And to answer your question very directly, absolutely, spiritual wounds are a part of it. For a lot of people, they’ve grown up learning that having a relationship with a higher power, which often in this world is through God and through a relationship with Jesus, has to come with a cost. If you believe that for years, it can be very very hard to reengage with that form of relating to a higher power through organized religion. Again, it can create some kind of PTSD response. So, yeah. You hear survivors talk about this. “I didn’t only lose my sanity. I didn’t only lose my mental health and my physical health. I lost my relationship to God when I had to step away from this.” That’s where I think churches have to step up. They have a responsibility to say if you want to practice religion here in the way that you grew up, you’re welcome to do it. Churches have to be proactive if they want to fully affirm LGBTQ people, because it’s overwhelmingly the message that people still get is “you’re not welcome here,” and that has consequences.

PRAY AWAY. Cr. NETFLIX